Calculus of IT - Season 2 Episode 7 - Part 2 - Establishing Boundaries and Principles for Autonomy

In Part 2 of our mini-series about IT leadership principles, Nate and Mike went all the way to Boston (actually we live right near it) to broadcast live from BioIT World (it's an annual podcast tradition now ;-).  We continued with Part 2 of our two part min-series on principled decision making and explored how to navigate 'zero-choice' situations and maintain principles under pressure. We took on the Macgyver Principle of IT leadership, discussed the practical application of the Four Pillars Framework and the Three-Options Rule, addressed the nuances of "zero-choice" scenarios and the art of principled exceptions.  We also spoke about creating a framework for navigating boundary violations, emphasizing documentation, compensating controls, and continuous learning. This episode also features the "Principled Pragmatist" archetype and offers valuable insights into building a culture of principled decision-making.  Plus, Mike had a sit-down conversation with ChatGPT to ask - is MacGyver proactive or reactive...here is what ChatGPT had to say...

MacGyver would definitely be considered proactive, though he often operates in reactive situations.Here’s the nuance:
•Proactive mindset: MacGyver constantly observes his environment, anticipates what could go wrong, and thinks several steps ahead. He doesn’t just wait for things to happen—he prepares mentally and creatively so that when something does happen, he’s ready to act fast.
•Reactive scenarios: Most of the time, he’s thrust into urgent, unpredictable crises (like bombs, traps, or kidnappings). But even in these high-pressure situations, he doesn’t panic—he quickly evaluates the situation, uses available resources, and comes up with clever, often unconventional solutions.So while his actions may appear reactive (responding to immediate problems), his mindset and decision-making style are highly proactive. He’s always prepared to think on his feet, which is kind of his superpower.Would you say you’re more like MacGyver in how you tackle problems?

Transcript

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Nathan McBride: No?

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Nathan McBride: Then it's great we've got. It was a lot that's okay.

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Nathan McBride: Thank you.

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Nathan McBride: Probably don't need that much caffeine right now. But

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Nathan McBride: and also, when I'm gonna get back, I'm gonna use new powers. Thank you.

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Nathan McBride: How come in right

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Nathan McBride: with slack with Chrome

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Nathan McBride: Island.

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Nathan McBride: Second.

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Nathan McBride: okay, here comes the invite.

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Nathan McBride: Thank you so much welcome.

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Nathan McBride: And if you want to order any food, just put the menu up. Oh, got it wonderful. Okay, thank you.

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Nathan McBride: Yeah, for my next drink. It's not going to be this one again. No, no, I'm gonna switch to

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Nathan McBride: Which one was it?

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Nathan McBride: The I-eighty 9 North. But that won't be until this is done. Yeah, we're going to be done with this. Yes.

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Nathan McBride: thank you. I'll be good. I'll stick with this. Yeah. And again, if you want to order anything else in the food? You can just put the money box. Great, wonderful! Thank you

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Nathan McBride: for the 2 of us.

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Nathan McBride: Excellent.

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Nathan McBride: It says it's recording.

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Nathan McBride: Can you save something

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Mike Crispin: Yup!

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Mike Crispin: Can you hear me?

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Mike Crispin: Awesome, awesome.

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Nathan McBride: Have my little. That isn't that cute

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Nathan McBride: with the little thingies right there on those drinks

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Mike Crispin: Very, very cute.

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Mike Crispin: I love it. I love it

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Mike Crispin: very, very good.

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Mike Crispin: Right now we're in a good place here, you know.

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Mike Crispin: Okay.

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Nathan McBride: Well, I'll edit. I'll edit out my sneeze

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Nathan McBride: right. See that? You see, the whole thing is pink now.

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Nathan McBride: Very nice, remarkable, sound, good

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Mike Crispin: You sound good as well? Do you hear any echo at all?

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Nathan McBride: It's hard to tell, because I can hear your voice.

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Nathan McBride: Yeah, I also hear you here. I don't see. I don't hear an echo on here

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Mike Crispin: Here's what I'm gonna do. I'm just gonna turn this volume down

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Mike Crispin: alright. Can you hear me now?

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Nathan McBride: Yeah, I can hear you. Fine. What about me?

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Mike Crispin: Okay. I'm just making sure that. My, Hello! Hello!

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Mike Crispin: Hello! Hello!

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Nathan McBride: Can you hear me? Okay.

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Mike Crispin: Yeah, I can hear you.

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Nathan McBride: It says personalized audio isolation. I'm not sure if I need that, though

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Mike Crispin: My audio is there

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Nathan McBride: I'm gonna leave it on the current zoom, background, noise, removal

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Nathan McBride: And then I think we're all right.

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Mike Crispin: I think everything's fine on my end.

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Nathan McBride: All right. I got my drink, got your drink.

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Mike Crispin: I do have my drink.

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Mike Crispin: I'm just making sure that you're what

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Nathan McBride: My, your Eq. Levels are good on mine.

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Mike Crispin: Okay. So you can see me talking. Okay, cool. I think we're fine.

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Nathan McBride: Yes, I don't know how any any of this stuff works, but I'm assuming

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Mike Crispin: Let's just working. Let's do this.

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Mike Crispin: Hello! Hello! Hello! Can you hear me? Now?

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Nathan McBride: I can hear you before

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Mike Crispin: Okay.

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Nathan McBride: Now I hear an echo

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Mike Crispin: Now you do. Okay.

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Mike Crispin: Alright! How's that? Is that better?

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Mike Crispin: Yes, that's better.

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Mike Crispin: Alright. Now we're in a good place

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Nathan McBride: We are in a good place.

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Nathan McBride: Alright! Let me just move this window over here

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Mike Crispin: All right.

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Nathan McBride: And welcome back to the calculus of it.

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Nathan McBride: Welcome to episode 7 and a half part 2

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Mike Crispin: Awesome.

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Nathan McBride: Of season. 2. This is possibly not possibly actually, this is the greatest podcast on the Internet.

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Nathan McBride: It's a known fact.

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Nathan McBride: This is my question. I am Nate Mcbride

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Mike Crispin: Hello! Hello!

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Nathan McBride: And each week we bring you the sweetest. It leadership donut.

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Nathan McBride: With knowledge, guidance, predoxism is just a hint of strychnine.

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Nathan McBride: We just we open the knowledge nozzle and let it whack you away. You know I use this Tagline last episode, but I like it. I'm sticking with it.

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Mike Crispin: Yeah, you should do that now. Every single one

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Nathan McBride: Knowledge nozzle with the wafting of the knowledge, nozzle

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Mike Crispin: Breathe it in, breathe it in

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Nathan McBride: Just deep breaths breathe in that knowledge, breathing what you can.

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Nathan McBride: If you missed our last episode, which was

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Nathan McBride: now, 2 weeks ago 3 weeks ago.

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Nathan McBride: What the hell is wrong with you?

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Nathan McBride: I mean, basically.

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Nathan McBride: it's like a it's like a question mark at the end of that sentence. But it's also a dot dot

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Mike Crispin: You miss it, how could you miss it?

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Nathan McBride: How could you miss it? You can use AI to find it. You can use Google to find it. It's on all the old things

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Mike Crispin: You can pay $5 a month and use cagey to find it.

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Mike Crispin: So it's called cagey.

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Mike Crispin: The searching engine, cadgy, or Kg, or whatever it's called.

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Nathan McBride: Kadgy Kaji Kaji Kaji.

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Nathan McBride: Thank you.

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Nathan McBride: Kaiju is the actual animal that comes out of the ocean.

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Mike Crispin: Confusing name. Kind of a cute, confusing name for me to work through

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Nathan McBride: Well, we're gonna actually try and do this episode.

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Nathan McBride: We were, we were trying to do this episode last week at the Octa event at the Trillium brewery.

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Nathan McBride: but I was losing my voice, and the room was super loud, and Mike and I were literally sitting next to each other and screaming at each other.

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Nathan McBride: and did so. It didn't happen

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Mike Crispin: It was super loud. There's a lot of distractions as well

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Nathan McBride: That's okay, because we're at A, we're at a much. We're at a much more subtle, subtle bar right now what's called the

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Nathan McBride: the Sporting Club, and it is in the seaport of Boston

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Mike Crispin: Yep.

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Nathan McBride: Part of the Omni Hotel, and we're here because why?

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Mike Crispin: I/O it world, that's

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Nathan McBride: That's right. Mike and I were once again invited to come back and speak

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Nathan McBride: on behalf of box.com

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Mike Crispin: It is.

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Nathan McBride: We nailed that like a split hog

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Mike Crispin: Amen!

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Nathan McBride: AI and Metadata, and Meta, AI, and

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Mike Crispin: We're all in

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Nathan McBride: Hmm.

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Mike Crispin: It's got a 10.

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Mike Crispin: Take it.

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Nathan McBride: AI stands for. By the way.

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Mike Crispin: You know that all in Todd. That's why I sent it a NAN.

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Nathan McBride: It's not artificial insemination, as some people might think

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Mike Crispin: Oh, it's

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Nathan McBride: It's all in

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Mike Crispin: A i AI

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Nathan McBride: AI or I. It's just simply I.

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Nathan McBride: If you take AI and you just say it.

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Nathan McBride: It's I

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Mike Crispin: Aye, aye.

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Nathan McBride: Aye, aye, all right.

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Nathan McBride: So intelligence, intelligence isn't

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Mike Crispin: What about Ti?

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Mike Crispin: It's gonna take

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Nathan McBride: He's a great rapper, I mean. I like his stuff

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Mike Crispin: Oh, yeah. Yeah.

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Nathan McBride: Yeah. He works with Vienna.

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Mike Crispin: Oh, did did he work with digital music, crossroads.

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Nathan McBride: He did the nexus of digital music.

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Nathan McBride: That was Dmx. So

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Mike Crispin: Digital music, crossroads.

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Nathan McBride: Your once again. Your your knowledge of music astounds me.

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Mike Crispin: You didn't know. That's what his name stands for.

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Nathan McBride: No, I thought it was

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Nathan McBride: They're all

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Mike Crispin: Michael xylophone.

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Nathan McBride: So dial, phone? Yes.

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Mike Crispin: This whole time. Damien, Michael Xylophone, Dmx

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Nathan McBride: Okay.

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Mike Crispin: All right.

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Mike Crispin: I'm sorry.

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Nathan McBride: Go with that? No, that's okay.

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Nathan McBride: So we are at the infamous bio. It world, as we all know, infamous means more than famous

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Mike Crispin: Hmm.

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Nathan McBride: So we're we're meeting with all the vendors

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Nathan McBride: and getting free the free socks.

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Nathan McBride: So far I've got 2 good pairs.

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Nathan McBride: We also got some swag from the from our favorite vendor there I got new headphones. Mike got new headphones

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Mike Crispin: Whoosh!

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Nathan McBride: So we kind of cleaned up today

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Mike Crispin: Very nice, very nice.

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Nathan McBride: So I had before we even get into tonight or today. This afternoon, I have a question for you

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Mike Crispin: Sure.

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Nathan McBride: How many emails does it take from a vendor before you

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Mike Crispin: We consider it to be spam.

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Nathan McBride: And then the and then the flip, flip, side question to that is now, how many vendors do you think it takes for a vendor

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Mike Crispin: There it is!

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Nathan McBride: Realize it's sin.

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Mike Crispin: I don't think they ever realize it, because it's coming from a Crm. And it's going right to my spam. Anyway.

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Mike Crispin: If anyone has any sort of mail blocking system or commercial spam blocker in place. That stuff never gets seen.

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Mike Crispin: especially if it comes from salesforce.com, or sendgrid.

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Mike Crispin: So so I think they just send them because it's automated. But

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Nathan McBride: I would say

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Mike Crispin: I don't see them, but if I did, it's usually 3 or 4

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Nathan McBride: And what's your when you get a unsolicited email from somebody like a vendor.

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Nathan McBride: do you? A immediately unsubscribe B block it

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Nathan McBride: from? Put on your deny list.

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Nathan McBride: C. Respond, or d simply delete it, or any combination of those

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Mike Crispin: I'd say I usually delete it, but if I get really frustrated they go on the block list, not even the junk list. The the block list

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Nathan McBride: So I've got. I've gotten to the point now where, especially in like the last 6 months.

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Nathan McBride: basically, everyone gets gets put on the denialist that emails me period.

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Nathan McBride: And then if it's like something I need to do.

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Nathan McBride: I'll find out. So even the vendors that I use all the time are on deny listed.

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Nathan McBride: If I need them, I will email them and then temporarily unsuspend them.

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Nathan McBride: Yup.

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Nathan McBride: you can email me back, and then I'll put them right on the denial list. Because what's been happening is a lot of vendors are emailing my executives

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Mike Crispin: Oh, we gotta do that all the time

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Nathan McBride: Yeah, they put my domain into their pipeline as opposed to just my email address. And so now I've gotten to the point where, if you're a vendor and you listen to this, podcast you should know that you're you're already deny listed

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Nathan McBride: just by by default.

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Nathan McBride: So the whole

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Mike Crispin: Company.

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Nathan McBride: Yeah, you won't reach me by email. You have to either find me at a bar

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Nathan McBride: or come to my office or or use slack

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Nathan McBride: but I'm gonna block you already blocked

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Mike Crispin: Well, I think I think the reason a lot of them do it is because there's a certain level of emails that have to go out for customer

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Mike Crispin: in the Crm. There's like

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Nathan McBride: All that.

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Mike Crispin: So they probably don't even really want to do it, but they do

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Nathan McBride: I mean, believe me, I get most of this stuff is out of our control.

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Nathan McBride: It's the fact that we're in 2025, and we're still trying to use this vehicle

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Nathan McBride: for communication, and of course they also go to Linkedin and and Nice to be there.

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Nathan McBride: It's in 2025, I mean? How about every vendor

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Mike Crispin: It's a discord.

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Nathan McBride: You know, and if I want to find you, I'll just go there and talk to you

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Nathan McBride: where every vendor creates slack environment, or every vendor creates. You know blue sky account or something that lets me come to you

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Nathan McBride: and talk to people I don't want your I don't want your customer forms, by the way, because you never respond to them vendors. I just want a place to go and talk talk to you.

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Nathan McBride: and I think that's like

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Nathan McBride: to me. If I was going to start the company and sell software or sell anything, really, I would create a presence.

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Nathan McBride: and I'd put some people in my company on that all. So they were just constantly

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Nathan McBride: able to talk to people in real time.

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Nathan McBride: And so the email thing I would never email anybody.

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Nathan McBride: But that's just me.

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Mike Crispin: Just make clones.

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Nathan McBride: Okay. So anyway, that was.

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Nathan McBride: I didn't mean to digress that far, but

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Mike Crispin: Oh, no, I think it was a good good services

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Nathan McBride: Now let's make

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Mike Crispin: It's all vendors

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Nathan McBride: It came up, because, you know, as you, when you sign up to become a bio it world. They immediately put you on this spam list

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Nathan McBride: for every single vendor here, and there's hundreds of them.

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Nathan McBride: and I've been I mean, I thought I blocked them all last year, and the year before that the year before that, but new ones keep popping up

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Nathan McBride: so they've all been denied by default.

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Nathan McBride: and what I should have done if I was smart is. I would have downloaded the vendor list

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Nathan McBride: and then created a email domain profile for everybody, and then just put all those in the block list from the beginning. But my bad

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Mike Crispin: I just accept everything.

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Nathan McBride: Do you see driving.

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Mike Crispin: Yeah, just so they get points in the Crm, I just accept all their invites and

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Nathan McBride: Did you ever see the movie with Jim Carrey? Yes, ma'am.

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Nathan McBride: Yeah. Yeah.

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Nathan McBride: Where he just said yes to everybody for a whole desk

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Mike Crispin: That's kind of what I'm doing today.

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Nathan McBride: Well, it was more than that. He actually did he not only did he say yes, he didn't lie. He just said what was on his mind, but said yes to every single thing that people asked for.

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Nathan McBride: and I was always thought to myself like, how fun would that be just for one day. If you manage to get me on that day I would buy everything that you came to me with

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Nathan McBride: now it won't be today.

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Nathan McBride: and I'll tell you. It won't be tomorrow, but there's going to be one day in 2025 should be my yes day.

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Nathan McBride: Anyone who asked me for anything on my yesterday is gonna get. It doesn't matter how much it costs

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Mike Crispin: Sounds great. Let me know what day that is, and I will. I have a few things to ask

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Nathan McBride: Stay tuned. I'm gonna I will tell you secretly

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Mike Crispin: Oh!

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Nathan McBride: And you. And so you're therefore you can't use my essay.

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Nathan McBride: Okay, I will tell you what happens

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Mike Crispin: Is that is that because you're afraid of what I might ask for, or just because you want me to be in the loop

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Nathan McBride: Yeah, no, no, I'm gonna I'm afraid of what you might ask for, because now that you know what I'm gonna do.

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Nathan McBride: But I want to keep you in the loop.

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Nathan McBride: and then I will tell you the results of my yesterday. I will literally come on the podcast and I will say what happened to my yesterday

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Mike Crispin: Fair enough.

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Nathan McBride: You should have a yesterday as well.

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Nathan McBride: We could do it yesterday.

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Mike Crispin: Same.

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Nathan McBride: Day.

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Mike Crispin: That's a good idea.

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Mike Crispin: There are results

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Nathan McBride: So on the end vendors stay tuned

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Mike Crispin: It's

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Nathan McBride: For my yes, day. And I, whatever it is you sell me on that day. I'm gonna buy it

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Mike Crispin: Today was my yesterday connect on Linkedin. I'm just like, yeah, I'll accept all of these invites

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Nathan McBride: Yesterday, moment.

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Mike Crispin: Oh, yeah, that's like, I want to accommodate all of these vendors as best I can. I've been ignoring their emails so

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Nathan McBride: You accept

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Mike Crispin: About 12.

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Mike Crispin: They're all salespeople

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Nathan McBride: Wow!

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Nathan McBride: Did they all find a way to relate to you

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Mike Crispin: No, I'm gonna ask him to write a short essay

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Nathan McBride: How many of them have listened to the Podcast, and love it, because everyone that talks to me loves the Podcast.

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Mike Crispin: Oh, they do! They see the post, and they they listen to it. Not just read the post on Linkedin

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Nathan McBride: Yeah, they take

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Mike Crispin: They listen, and while they read, if they read.

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Nathan McBride: Because it's not reflective in the numbers of our audience that we have so many listeners

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Mike Crispin: Yes.

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Nathan McBride: But it's okay. So I wanted to do a quick jobs update

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Mike Crispin: Nice

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Nathan McBride: Yeah. So the Nih is looking for anybody competent

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Nathan McBride: to run their organization because all the common people have been fired.

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Nathan McBride: Cber, cedar and the Fta are also looking people that don't believe in 3rd grade conspiracy theories. So if you know anybody that's smart.

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Nathan McBride: and able to be able to deal with those that's awesome.

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Nathan McBride: Give offerings

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Mike Crispin: Man!

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Nathan McBride: You have to believe you have to believe, though, that every single vaccine creates simples and

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Nathan McBride: dude that's gross

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Mike Crispin: You know what ass pimples

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Nathan McBride: And autism.

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Mike Crispin: Yike

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Nathan McBride: Every vaccine.

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Mike Crispin: Oh! Whoa!

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Nathan McBride: Ever.

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Mike Crispin: Oh, got it? Okay.

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Nathan McBride: Yeah, if you believe that you're gonna be like the president of the FDA

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Mike Crispin: It's hmm!

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Nathan McBride: Or or Nih, or both also

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Mike Crispin: The stock market is

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Nathan McBride: Also. Yes. Several of our companies from

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Mike Crispin: So are still looking for roles

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Nathan McBride: Bye, I don't know what what's going on.

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Nathan McBride: Akedia apparently, is still looking for a vice president of it.

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Nathan McBride: Export Pharma Ironwood, spotify vertex verve.

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Nathan McBride: Smith and nephew and Al Nylam are all looking for vps of digital

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Mike Crispin: Vp of AI for spotify sounds really interesting. It does.

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Mike Crispin: Hmm.

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Nathan McBride: I mean, if you like, spotify the whole music thing right? And also you like AI, and also you're of a Vp caliber. You get the 3 way check box right there.

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Mike Crispin: It's nothing like a good three-way checkbox

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Nathan McBride: That's literally the name of my next band

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Mike Crispin: I love that 3 way. Check box.

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Nathan McBride: We're gonna be like a smash up between emo track and New New Age

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Mike Crispin: Wow, let's

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Nathan McBride: Think Enya. But will John

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Mike Crispin: Wow!

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Mike Crispin: So John O'callaghan and and young

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Nathan McBride: A checkbox.

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Nathan McBride: We're going to go on towards Matchbox 20

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Mike Crispin: Yeah, that'd be you'd be a great opener for them.

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Mike Crispin: Okay.

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Nathan McBride: What was that band? It's saying?

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Nathan McBride: name? I don't know your name

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Mike Crispin: Blue Dolls.

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Nathan McBride: Yeah, they

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Mike Crispin: Yeah, yeah.

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Nathan McBride: They're gonna be on our tour, too.

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Mike Crispin: 7, 93 3rd eye, blind

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Nathan McBride: What I've learned.

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Nathan McBride: B, 52,

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Mike Crispin: Seek.

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Mike Crispin: Great. How about Elvis Costello? That would be a nice mix in there

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Nathan McBride: Labs and Mit are still looking for Cios, or at least they haven't taken their jobs down yet.

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Mike Crispin: Vertex

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Nathan McBride: Is looking for director of AI governance and policy

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Nathan McBride: which to me sounds pretty damn cool if you're into AI

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Nathan McBride: and you like governance and policy. But I can't imagine what that role is going to do besides, create a policy

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Nathan McBride: and then enforce it.

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Mike Crispin: Cannot use. AI

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Nathan McBride: You can use it. But you you over here. You can't use it

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Mike Crispin: You cannot use it unless

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Nathan McBride: The rude father.

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Mike Crispin: Policy

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Nathan McBride: Garuda and Arena looking for directors of it, and Serbia pharmaceuticals is looking for a director in. Perhaps

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Nathan McBride: I want to say that

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Nathan McBride: Mike and I met the coo of 0 bio. Today. CIRR. O.

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Nathan McBride: And it sounds like an awesome company. I looked at their Linkedin profile. They're doing some really cool shit. They're not hiring right now, but if you are paying attention you will

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Nathan McBride: bookmark that you'll follow that company and bookmark that web page, because big things

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Mike Crispin: Very nice. Very very very interesting. Yeah.

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Nathan McBride: We do have a slackboard that's growing stelly.

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Nathan McBride: which anyone in the world is welcome to join unless you're a vendor.

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Nathan McBride: No, we'll think vendors, too. We have a special place in our board for you.

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Nathan McBride: The link to join our slack board is in our sub stack page, and in all the episode description notes.

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Nathan McBride: It's slack. So

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Nathan McBride: come on in and untether yourself from the depressing ass world you live in and hang in our it meet you space

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Mike Crispin: Oh, I like that like that.

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Mike Crispin: Be cute! I like that. That's

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Nathan McBride: It is our site board is an easy suit

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Mike Crispin: Hmm!

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Mike Crispin: I like that. I like that. I like how you put that. I like that

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Nathan McBride: Digital professionals to mentally interact on a

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Mike Crispin: Now is that the that the tagline in italics, under the title

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Nathan McBride: Yeah, yeah.

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Mike Crispin: Got it. Okay.

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Nathan McBride: Interactive meet cute space for digital professionals.

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Mike Crispin: Oops!

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Nathan McBride: So if you want to

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Mike Crispin: If you

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Nathan McBride: If you want to continue the conversations on our show, you can come on the slack board, or you can just go on substack, and you can be like that episode was absolute, pure garbage, or you actually had an interesting point. And then I fell asleep

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Nathan McBride: or

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Mike Crispin: Or here's this smiley face, Emoji

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Nathan McBride: Smiley face. Emoji.

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Nathan McBride: it doesn't matter if you do listen to the show in any format whatsoever. You should give us all the stars you've heard this spiel like at least 60 times.

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Nathan McBride: I don't know why it's not happening

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Mike Crispin: So no idea.

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Nathan McBride: Wrong.

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Nathan McBride: I have no idea, literally press the Frickin 5 star button.

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Nathan McBride: and then you can just never have to do it again.

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Nathan McBride: It's just one time. Just press the fucking button

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Mike Crispin: Please, please do it.

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Nathan McBride: You know.

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Mike Crispin: Just just push it.

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Nathan McBride: Mike gave me a new idea for a shirt today, which I'm gonna be making, and that's going to go up on the new on the Merchandise store.

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Mike Crispin: Oh! Oh!

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Nathan McBride: You'll have to wait and see

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Mike Crispin: But

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Nathan McBride: We have descriptions, we have descriptions.

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Nathan McBride: of course, we have descriptions, we have links in our descriptions to our buy us a beer portal where you can buy us beers

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Nathan McBride: like real actual beer, like it goes right into our our mouths.

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Nathan McBride: and you can also buy us buy merch from us, which goes back into funding the show.

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Nathan McBride: We'll never make a profit on this show ever

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Mike Crispin: Well, it is a nonprofit show. Right?

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Nathan McBride: We're we're dot. We're a.edu

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Mike Crispin: By choice, by choice.

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Nathan McBride: By choice a hundred percent of our profits after beer expenses

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Nathan McBride: and the cost of the show

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Nathan McBride: and everything else goes to Wikimedia.

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Nathan McBride: which means that I just pay for Wikimedia out of my pocket, because we don't make any profits.

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Nathan McBride: and aclu so oh, so donate to both the H Aclu and Wikimedia then preserve intellectual freedom.

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Nathan McBride: So last time we met, which was about 2 weeks ago.

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Mike Crispin: Yeah.

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Nathan McBride: I can't remember. I think it was 2 weeks ago or 3 weeks ago, but it was like roughly in that timeframe

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Nathan McBride: for episode 7, part one.

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Nathan McBride: we started our deep dive into establishing clear boundaries and principles about the decisions you make as an It leader

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Mike Crispin: Yep.

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Nathan McBride: We covered what makes good boundaries

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Nathan McBride: we covered the 4 pillars framework and we created ash. We talked about creating actionable boundaries. Now.

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Nathan McBride: if you were just listening to that episode, then this will make perfect sense.

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Nathan McBride: If you have no idea what we're talking about. Go back and listen to that episode first, st before you listen to this one.

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Nathan McBride: It'll explain a lot

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Nathan McBride: and get you caught up because we're gonna jump right into this episode. And if you didn't listen to that one, this one might be a little bit weird.

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Nathan McBride: So this afternoon we're gonna continue the competition with this

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Nathan McBride: other crucial aspects of this topic.

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Nathan McBride: because when it comes to principles and boundaries, the devil's in the details.

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Nathan McBride: So we're going to focus on 0 choice situations.

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Nathan McBride: And again, if you've listened to this season. You know, we talk about 0 1 discussion, 0, 1 decisions, a lot

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Nathan McBride: we're talking about 0 choice situations. But with the 3 options rule, which, after I wrote it, ended up being the 10 options rule. But we're gonna go with iteration one, which is 3 options rule

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Nathan McBride: as well, as rule, breaking and a bunch of other good stuff.

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Nathan McBride: Now I want to just do a sidebar here.

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Nathan McBride: So last night I was at dinner with

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00:25:27.060 --> 00:25:29.260
Nathan McBride: some of the Ogs from Orchard

407
00:25:29.730 --> 00:25:31.040
Mike Crispin: Okay. Okay.

408
00:25:31.540 --> 00:25:36.849
Nathan McBride: So the team got together, or most of the team got together, and we had dinner, which we do every year at Bio. It world.

409
00:25:37.240 --> 00:25:42.029
Nathan McBride: and I was talking to them about creating calamity to achieve results.

410
00:25:42.650 --> 00:25:46.190
Nathan McBride: And it's something that they've long known. It's like, I hold as a

411
00:25:46.450 --> 00:25:52.639
Nathan McBride: a key principle to good it. Management, which is, you have to know when to allow chaos to happen.

412
00:25:52.760 --> 00:26:02.230
Nathan McBride: so that you can achieve a result. You have to know when to manufacture chaos, to achieve a result, then, of course, you always have to make sure you have the mitigation plans in place, for when such chaos occurs.

413
00:26:02.610 --> 00:26:06.959
Nathan McBride: And this is the rule breaking thing we're going to talk about, because

414
00:26:07.200 --> 00:26:09.599
Nathan McBride: I think that there are simply times when

415
00:26:09.740 --> 00:26:30.779
Nathan McBride: you will have a person or a couple of people that are absolutely, positively going to live in the 19 eighties and not get on board with technology, despite how great it is for a company or a decision, and you have to sort of force your hand. Now there's pure victories you can make, which is, you can sit down and have meetings, and you can make threats. You can do all the things, or you can simply prove

416
00:26:31.320 --> 00:26:36.080
Nathan McBride: that your approach is the preferred. Approach.

417
00:26:36.080 --> 00:26:39.349
Nathan McBride: Wise for push through a very, very simple choice.

418
00:26:40.160 --> 00:26:42.099
Nathan McBride: Simply turn off the thing

419
00:26:42.440 --> 00:26:49.729
Nathan McBride: and then let it not work, and then you can get somebody to understand why that thing is inferior, right?

420
00:26:50.380 --> 00:26:55.760
Nathan McBride: So that's a principled decision. And we're gonna talk about principles today, too.

421
00:26:55.950 --> 00:27:00.179
Nathan McBride: and when it's good time to keep them. And when it's the time to abandon them.

422
00:27:00.510 --> 00:27:03.169
Nathan McBride: But the problem is with most it leaders.

423
00:27:04.110 --> 00:27:11.280
Nathan McBride: In my opinion you tell me about this. What your thoughts are is that they abandon principles the moment they become inconvenient.

424
00:27:11.750 --> 00:27:15.970
Nathan McBride: or they become career delimiting, or they become

425
00:27:16.930 --> 00:27:25.500
Nathan McBride: Oh, this this might not go well in my review, like you're you're going to have to have that balance moment where you say. What's more important.

426
00:27:25.640 --> 00:27:29.690
Nathan McBride: getting this done, the way I said it was, gonna get done on behalf of the company or my career.

427
00:27:30.310 --> 00:27:32.040
Nathan McBride: So today, we're gonna talk about

428
00:27:32.190 --> 00:27:34.149
Nathan McBride: when and how to break your own rules.

429
00:27:34.430 --> 00:27:38.890
Nathan McBride: how to create this digital framework that actually works and allows you to create what's

430
00:27:38.890 --> 00:27:44.270
Nathan McBride: ability to break your own rules and how to build a cultural principle decisions, thoughts.

431
00:27:46.380 --> 00:27:47.660
Mike Crispin: Well, I think

432
00:27:50.980 --> 00:27:54.169
Mike Crispin: there's always an opportunity to create chaos when it's

433
00:27:55.810 --> 00:28:02.909
Mike Crispin: I guess, when you have the the support of your team to know that your that is your approach, and that that can come. It's not a surprise

434
00:28:02.910 --> 00:28:03.290
Nathan McBride: Bill.

435
00:28:07.020 --> 00:28:09.140
Mike Crispin: But I I think it's a

436
00:28:09.790 --> 00:28:17.910
Mike Crispin: important for you to stick to your principles and make the decisions you think are best. After all. That's why you have been hired

437
00:28:18.170 --> 00:28:27.489
Mike Crispin: to do the role you are doing, and anytime you want to change something or take a

438
00:28:28.070 --> 00:28:31.270
Mike Crispin: new approach. It could be an inconvenient approach.

439
00:28:32.190 --> 00:28:38.199
Mike Crispin: But that's part of what leadership is is the ability to make those tough decisions and

440
00:28:38.410 --> 00:28:43.142
Mike Crispin: to deal with the blowback if it comes

441
00:28:45.580 --> 00:28:54.510
Mike Crispin: some of this being able to influence appropriately and and just, you said, like kind of pulling the peg out and letting something not work so they can see

442
00:28:56.430 --> 00:28:57.610
Mike Crispin: it's also

443
00:28:59.920 --> 00:29:07.259
Mike Crispin: going your strategy, maybe putting plotting out your strategy, but at the same time being able to show them and take action

444
00:29:07.780 --> 00:29:14.200
Mike Crispin: and and and show a business use case of what the result of your strategy will be.

445
00:29:14.310 --> 00:29:20.320
Mike Crispin: You can mock something up. If you can build a model defense, you can

446
00:29:21.590 --> 00:29:25.930
Mike Crispin: something tangible they can grab onto and see that can help

447
00:29:26.800 --> 00:29:32.069
Mike Crispin: a decision be made. Help your decision be accepted as opposed to having to

448
00:29:32.070 --> 00:29:32.560
Nathan McBride: But cost

449
00:29:32.560 --> 00:29:37.129
Mike Crispin: Sure or do the easier thing.

450
00:29:37.460 --> 00:29:40.210
Mike Crispin: Now, I think there are instances where you

451
00:29:40.600 --> 00:29:44.429
Mike Crispin: and absolutely do the easier thing, and the zoom

452
00:29:44.430 --> 00:29:45.240
Nathan McBride: Your choice.

453
00:29:45.240 --> 00:29:51.210
Mike Crispin: Yeah, you you might very well just say this particular decision

454
00:29:51.410 --> 00:29:53.730
Nathan McBride: Isn't going to have that big of an impact

455
00:29:54.180 --> 00:30:00.839
Mike Crispin: And I really want to make sure. This other decision that I know is going to be difficult makes the right impact.

456
00:30:01.280 --> 00:30:04.600
Mike Crispin: So you've got a sort of rank.

457
00:30:04.960 --> 00:30:07.900
Mike Crispin: your priorities and the risks that you're willing to take.

458
00:30:09.800 --> 00:30:11.220
Mike Crispin: I'm all set. Thank you.

459
00:30:11.510 --> 00:30:13.118
Mike Crispin: I don't think that.

460
00:30:14.500 --> 00:30:18.329
Mike Crispin: I think what we're gonna talk about is kind of this. This 3 choice model

461
00:30:18.670 --> 00:30:24.400
Mike Crispin: is that sometimes the the easy choice makes sense, and it's a compromise.

462
00:30:24.800 --> 00:30:28.099
Mike Crispin: The choice of where you want to go.

463
00:30:29.990 --> 00:30:31.639
Mike Crispin: Might be the right choice.

464
00:30:31.810 --> 00:30:42.319
Mike Crispin: And then there's more of an aspirational choice that you might make outside of what we're talking about specifically technologies, but just in terms of your approach, you may have a more aspirational and strategic

465
00:30:42.530 --> 00:30:44.840
Mike Crispin: choice. To make that

466
00:30:45.090 --> 00:30:50.069
Mike Crispin: is going to take longer is going to be more difficult. Maybe you're even unsure of it.

467
00:30:50.200 --> 00:30:54.849
Mike Crispin: But you know that you have the team around you or the resources to make it happen.

468
00:30:54.970 --> 00:31:00.180
Mike Crispin: So you're gonna go even out of scope of what your second choice was

469
00:31:02.050 --> 00:31:02.840
Nathan McBride: Sorry to interrupt.

470
00:31:02.840 --> 00:31:03.819
Mike Crispin: No go ahead! Go ahead!

471
00:31:03.820 --> 00:31:04.440
Nathan McBride: But

472
00:31:04.960 --> 00:31:12.429
Nathan McBride: there are times when we're gonna you're gonna have only a 0 choice option, like, there are times when you're absolutely only going to have 0 choice

473
00:31:12.430 --> 00:31:13.509
Mike Crispin: Yeah, no no no worries.

474
00:31:13.510 --> 00:31:15.768
Nathan McBride: And so like, for instance,

475
00:31:17.640 --> 00:31:21.040
Nathan McBride: And we were just talking about this a moment ago. You have to go with Zoom TR

476
00:31:21.040 --> 00:31:25.089
Nathan McBride: system, because it's what everybody in the industry uses at this level of the company.

477
00:31:25.220 --> 00:31:36.779
Nathan McBride: or you have to go with this cloud platform because it's only the thing that your developers already know or research department already knows right or the system. You have to go with the system that your company acquired through M. And a right so

478
00:31:37.170 --> 00:31:37.630
Mike Crispin: Do you have any choice?

479
00:31:37.630 --> 00:31:42.140
Nathan McBride: These situations test those principle boundaries like like nothing else.

480
00:31:42.340 --> 00:31:45.149
Nathan McBride: Yeah, it's easy to maintain principles when you have options.

481
00:31:46.720 --> 00:31:49.720
Nathan McBride: There's a this is total.

482
00:31:50.230 --> 00:31:54.440
Nathan McBride: total, unnecessary segue. But there's a Broadway play I love called Hadestown.

483
00:31:55.040 --> 00:31:57.570
Nathan McBride: and in Hayes Town there's this one song

484
00:31:58.190 --> 00:32:06.539
Nathan McBride: that it's says it's basically talking about how easy it is to make choices when you have, or how easy it is to hold your principles when you have choices to make.

485
00:32:06.650 --> 00:32:11.479
Nathan McBride: Now the second, that you eliminate choices, how all of a sudden your principles get thrown away.

486
00:32:12.400 --> 00:32:15.340
Nathan McBride: and when you have these 0 options

487
00:32:17.780 --> 00:32:20.419
Nathan McBride: I think that they're rarer than they actually seem.

488
00:32:22.000 --> 00:32:26.220
Nathan McBride: It's like, okay, everyone in the industry uses this this erp system.

489
00:32:26.530 --> 00:32:30.199
Nathan McBride: Yeah. So we must use it. Well, it sounds like 0 choice.

490
00:32:30.420 --> 00:32:34.790
Nathan McBride: And for most people it just could be 0 choice. Okay, fine. We'll go with that platform.

491
00:32:35.170 --> 00:32:40.960
Nathan McBride: But it's like the highest convenience to effort, ratio option sometimes.

492
00:32:41.100 --> 00:32:46.750
Nathan McBride: So like. For instance, everyone in our industry uses, and I'll use a vendor term netsuite.

493
00:32:47.230 --> 00:32:50.649
Nathan McBride: Our people know it, our partners integrate with it. We have no choice.

494
00:32:50.950 --> 00:32:56.560
Nathan McBride: And the argument contains a whole bunch of assumptions. Right? Everyone uses it. That's not true.

495
00:32:57.530 --> 00:33:00.310
Nathan McBride: Maybe everyone that they've worked with uses it.

496
00:33:00.790 --> 00:33:03.029
Nathan McBride: Then the next one. Our people know it

497
00:33:03.530 --> 00:33:05.820
Nathan McBride: well, they may not know what it's all.

498
00:33:07.031 --> 00:33:12.100
Nathan McBride: They may have only been trained up to a certain point, so they know of it for sure.

499
00:33:12.370 --> 00:33:27.050
Nathan McBride: They may not know it, though, and this is a proven fact. You might go into a company that says, Oh, yes, we're going to use this. We're going to use netsuite. Come to find out. Your Ap. Department has only ever been trained on one thing in netsuite. They don't know anything else about netsuite.

500
00:33:28.952 --> 00:33:34.759
Nathan McBride: The the idea that the partners integrate with it, and that's immediately assumes no other integration. Options exist.

501
00:33:35.150 --> 00:33:39.079
Nathan McBride: And then, lastly, we have no statement. We have no choice.

502
00:33:39.400 --> 00:33:41.509
Nathan McBride: I mean, the decision is is binary.

503
00:33:41.690 --> 00:33:45.810
Nathan McBride: It's never binary, but it's just

504
00:33:46.390 --> 00:33:46.910
Mike Crispin: It's actually

505
00:33:46.910 --> 00:33:58.519
Nathan McBride: We talked about before. You can die on that hill, right? You can make the decision to do a functional requirements back and review the industry. You may still end up with that vendor, anyway.

506
00:33:59.140 --> 00:34:02.210
Nathan McBride: But the 0 choice here is.

507
00:34:04.120 --> 00:34:10.449
Nathan McBride: do I go with what I know will probably be the outcome, anyway, and

508
00:34:10.770 --> 00:34:14.209
Nathan McBride: and just like make the and like just be done with it. Or do I

509
00:34:14.210 --> 00:34:14.750
Mike Crispin: Bye.

510
00:34:14.949 --> 00:34:18.799
Nathan McBride: Know that the outcome will be netsuite anyways, but make the fight.

511
00:34:19.099 --> 00:34:22.969
Nathan McBride: That's the principal decision. It's still the same outcome. Sorry. Go ahead.

512
00:34:23.179 --> 00:34:34.519
Mike Crispin: No, I was gonna say, is that in the case of an Erp or some of these others is what is your reason to look elsewhere, you know, in some of these platforms, as as a as a principal perspective.

513
00:34:34.799 --> 00:34:38.869
Mike Crispin: you might be thinking about. Well, that's even maybe even

514
00:34:39.149 --> 00:34:44.259
Mike Crispin: you, as an it leader is saying, Okay, I know how that works. It's good enough. It's gonna meet the need

515
00:34:44.509 --> 00:34:45.379
Mike Crispin: that would.

516
00:34:45.649 --> 00:34:48.889
Mike Crispin: I'm not gonna review it and go through it.

517
00:34:49.029 --> 00:34:54.739
Mike Crispin: or do a a shopping exercise to see if anything's advanced, because maybe my priorities

518
00:34:55.509 --> 00:35:00.169
Mike Crispin: I have so many priorities to handle that that's 1 that we can implement quickly.

519
00:35:00.489 --> 00:35:09.139
Mike Crispin: But on this other front, like maybe an AI front or cyber security front, or where it's like, there's a lot more, perhaps nuance or

520
00:35:09.289 --> 00:35:12.219
Mike Crispin: or influence that needs to be

521
00:35:13.049 --> 00:35:16.929
Mike Crispin: put in place where you're gonna be a disruptor in some areas that you save

522
00:35:18.169 --> 00:35:21.849
Mike Crispin: save that decision based on your priorities, and based on your

523
00:35:22.559 --> 00:35:27.199
Mike Crispin: standing at the company and everything else. There may be some easier choices to make that are

524
00:35:27.369 --> 00:35:28.989
Mike Crispin: 0 sum, that

525
00:35:28.990 --> 00:35:29.560
Nathan McBride: Yeah.

526
00:35:29.860 --> 00:35:33.420
Nathan McBride: And we've we've both seen leaders in it

527
00:35:33.940 --> 00:35:37.839
Nathan McBride: and leaders in general, but who, when faced with an executive mandate.

528
00:35:37.950 --> 00:35:42.400
Nathan McBride: Cfo says, this Coo says this simply roll over implement.

529
00:35:42.400 --> 00:35:44.619
Nathan McBride: or is it asked, without raising concerns

530
00:35:44.620 --> 00:35:45.189
Mike Crispin: Yeah, sure.

531
00:35:45.190 --> 00:35:47.239
Nathan McBride: That's not leadership. That's just order taken.

532
00:35:47.440 --> 00:35:48.300
Nathan McBride: That's right.

533
00:35:48.470 --> 00:35:49.650
Nathan McBride: Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

534
00:35:49.650 --> 00:35:58.639
Nathan McBride: I mean it. Leadership means respectfully challenging decisions. Yeah, I hear, like, I hear what you're saying, customer?

535
00:35:59.783 --> 00:36:19.699
Nathan McBride: Respectfully challenging those decisions, especially when they come from above. But then you have to figure out that middle ground. So what often presents itself as a 0 choice challenge is sometimes, or maybe more often than not to be hyperbolic. An interpersonal political, organizational challenge well.

536
00:36:20.700 --> 00:36:21.780
Nathan McBride: may understand that's right.

537
00:36:21.780 --> 00:36:22.620
Nathan McBride: Full alternatives.

538
00:36:23.510 --> 00:36:27.569
Nathan McBride: What's lacking the support, political capital, influence, or courage to pursue them

539
00:36:27.840 --> 00:36:28.470
Mike Crispin: Sure.

540
00:36:28.470 --> 00:36:29.350
Nathan McBride: So

541
00:36:29.680 --> 00:36:41.210
Nathan McBride: like, if you're an it leader who's got year, months, or years of technological successes behind you, you probably have. You probably have a much higher chance of challenging

542
00:36:41.330 --> 00:36:47.089
Nathan McBride: an executive 0 decision than somebody who's say 6 months on the job

543
00:36:47.520 --> 00:36:49.920
Mike Crispin: So you've built up some credibility

544
00:36:49.920 --> 00:36:51.120
Nathan McBride: Yeah, yep.

545
00:36:51.720 --> 00:36:56.879
Nathan McBride: In which case it's almost likely. I mean, I'll speak for myself.

546
00:36:57.000 --> 00:37:04.470
Nathan McBride: I have very few times now where I face 0 choice decisions from an executive mandate.

547
00:37:04.690 --> 00:37:14.240
Nathan McBride: Now I face 0 choice decisions from an industry mandate industry, perspective, like the industry. Like, I have a clinic that will only use this platform.

548
00:37:15.040 --> 00:37:16.970
Nathan McBride: Well, I can fight it.

549
00:37:17.330 --> 00:37:23.390
Nathan McBride: or I can make a 0 choice decision which which runs contravenously to my principles.

550
00:37:23.610 --> 00:37:26.969
Nathan McBride: Okay, but that's not my executives.

551
00:37:27.470 --> 00:37:28.300
Mike Crispin: Sure. Yeah.

552
00:37:28.300 --> 00:37:30.820
Nathan McBride: That's the well-being of my business.

553
00:37:31.350 --> 00:37:32.450
Nathan McBride: So

554
00:37:32.960 --> 00:37:41.160
Mike Crispin: But what you're saying is you're you would ultimately any solution that comes through you as an It leader, need to do your due diligence and understand

555
00:37:41.280 --> 00:37:46.690
Mike Crispin: what's being asked and what the solution does. But ultimately, if you agree on the solution.

556
00:37:47.280 --> 00:37:56.600
Mike Crispin: you would move forward with it right? I mean that you wouldn't consider that as 0 choice, like you've done your analysis. You've presented other options, perhaps, as well.

557
00:37:56.780 --> 00:37:59.670
Mike Crispin: But it's easy when you agree

558
00:38:00.600 --> 00:38:04.139
Nathan McBride: It's like what I've always told everyone that's ever worked in my departments, which is.

559
00:38:04.330 --> 00:38:17.020
Nathan McBride: you know, you. You have a position could be security based risk based benefits based resource based whatever you're whatever you're wherever you're sort of willing to draw the line if you lose

560
00:38:17.590 --> 00:38:20.880
Nathan McBride: and losing is the wrong word, but it's the only one I have. If you

561
00:38:21.210 --> 00:38:26.359
Nathan McBride: maybe if you fail to get your point across, then you have to pivot

562
00:38:26.820 --> 00:38:30.009
Nathan McBride: towards okay, how are we gonna now support this thing?

563
00:38:30.430 --> 00:38:30.840
Mike Crispin: Yes.

564
00:38:30.840 --> 00:38:32.220
Nathan McBride: But but

565
00:38:33.140 --> 00:38:34.480
Nathan McBride: You have to.

566
00:38:34.680 --> 00:38:42.849
Nathan McBride: the principal leader will say, I want to let you know that if you put in this platform it now brings in these new risks to the company.

567
00:38:43.260 --> 00:38:50.050
Nathan McBride: however, and I'm and I'm firmly believe you should not do this. However, if you do this, we will find a way to support you.

568
00:38:50.460 --> 00:38:53.449
Nathan McBride: That is a 0 choice principle, leader option.

569
00:38:53.870 --> 00:39:01.870
Nathan McBride: But the most like the most dangerous part of 0 choice thinking is that it becomes a self fulfilling prophecy over time. If you believe you have no choice.

570
00:39:02.060 --> 00:39:06.560
Nathan McBride: you just sit there and say, Oh, fuck it! I have no choice. Then you stop looking for alternatives.

571
00:39:06.990 --> 00:39:10.899
Mike Crispin: That's right, and if you stop looking for alternatives, you

572
00:39:11.330 --> 00:39:13.100
Nathan McBride: And end up with no choice

573
00:39:13.340 --> 00:39:14.680
Mike Crispin: Vicious cycle.

574
00:39:15.800 --> 00:39:21.240
Nathan McBride: So we're gonna explore a little bit more about this, but honestly, that

575
00:39:21.980 --> 00:39:28.439
Nathan McBride: every single time I sit down and think about this, I think about. Where do I? Where do my principal boundaries lie

576
00:39:28.670 --> 00:39:33.779
Nathan McBride: like I'm principled to a point we've already talked about adding ad nauseum that I'm

577
00:39:33.970 --> 00:39:37.690
Nathan McBride: principled to not deploy Microsoft in an environment

578
00:39:37.980 --> 00:39:40.550
Nathan McBride: if I can, if I can avoid it. However.

579
00:39:40.930 --> 00:39:49.510
Nathan McBride: multiple companies have gone by where I've deployed, supported, and even improved A Microsoft platform because

580
00:39:49.510 --> 00:39:50.020
Mike Crispin: Yeah.

581
00:39:50.150 --> 00:39:50.770
Nathan McBride: It wasn't

582
00:39:50.770 --> 00:39:51.469
Mike Crispin: With a 0

583
00:39:51.470 --> 00:39:51.960
Nathan McBride: Decision.

584
00:39:53.010 --> 00:39:57.659
Nathan McBride: It wasn't worth sacrificing their principles to try and find an alternative

585
00:39:58.990 --> 00:39:59.630
Mike Crispin: Correct.

586
00:40:01.950 --> 00:40:04.819
Nathan McBride: And and such is the way of life, sciences, industry, right

587
00:40:05.270 --> 00:40:05.740
Mike Crispin: Yeah.

588
00:40:05.740 --> 00:40:08.320
Nathan McBride: We don't have infinite choices a lot of times

589
00:40:08.580 --> 00:40:13.580
Mike Crispin: I think there are times where solutions are, you know, to use the air quotes good enough

590
00:40:13.780 --> 00:40:16.350
Nathan McBride: And you. They're not going to be

591
00:40:17.290 --> 00:40:27.330
Mike Crispin: Or don't need to be the the best, the absolute best solution. They need to be the solution. You can implement the fastest with your expectations that you're going to throw it away and

592
00:40:27.530 --> 00:40:28.130
Nathan McBride: Yeah.

593
00:40:28.600 --> 00:40:29.700
Mike Crispin: One to 2 years.

594
00:40:29.880 --> 00:40:41.619
Mike Crispin: you know. There's those things, too, that I think is like there. People like to call them Band-aids, I think. But it. It happens in the smaller companies that are trying to move so fast

595
00:40:42.350 --> 00:40:51.080
Mike Crispin: and need something. They just put whatever it is. And and as a it leader. You've got to sort of do the total cost. Yeah, if we put this in.

596
00:40:51.220 --> 00:40:53.860
Mike Crispin: we're gonna pay the same amount, getting rid of it.

597
00:40:54.000 --> 00:41:00.679
Mike Crispin: And then we're gonna pay additional because we're probably not gonna completely get out of it. We're gonna pay for the new system, too.

598
00:41:01.990 --> 00:41:02.649
Nathan McBride: There's

599
00:41:05.126 --> 00:41:11.519
Nathan McBride: So you and I mostly do the same type of models for project governance and prioritization within a company.

600
00:41:12.335 --> 00:41:21.429
Nathan McBride: There's a deck I've been using for almost 15 years now, and I've made some modifications to our time, but it seems to work really well when it comes to it project prioritization.

601
00:41:21.860 --> 00:41:24.389
Nathan McBride: And there's 1 slide in this deck

602
00:41:25.170 --> 00:41:32.061
Nathan McBride: which is particularly compelling. So when I'm big enough as an It department to have business analysts, they'll work with the

603
00:41:32.770 --> 00:41:35.129
Nathan McBride: the functional line to develop this deck.

604
00:41:35.260 --> 00:41:42.049
Nathan McBride: When I'm not big enough to help business analysts, I help the functional line build a deck, and this one slide is

605
00:41:42.955 --> 00:41:45.269
Nathan McBride: what I call essentially 4 options.

606
00:41:45.560 --> 00:41:48.230
Nathan McBride: but it follows what I call the 3 options grill.

607
00:41:48.680 --> 00:41:52.739
Nathan McBride: So on this slide slide option one is, do not

608
00:41:52.740 --> 00:41:53.360
Mike Crispin: About that

609
00:41:54.610 --> 00:41:56.639
Nathan McBride: Continue status quo. And and so.

610
00:41:56.640 --> 00:41:58.430
Nathan McBride: oh, good! That's right. The functional line is

611
00:41:58.430 --> 00:42:01.400
Nathan McBride: coming forward, and they want to get a new platform.

612
00:42:01.630 --> 00:42:07.309
Nathan McBride: So. Option? One. What if we did nothing, what would happen to the company? And they have to explain this out?

613
00:42:08.090 --> 00:42:12.739
Nathan McBride: Then you come into the 3 options. Option. 2. Going with this platform.

614
00:42:12.940 --> 00:42:13.490
Nathan McBride: So

615
00:42:13.880 --> 00:42:15.219
Mike Crispin: What they have to try to work.

616
00:42:15.220 --> 00:42:17.330
Mike Crispin: What will happen if they went into this new platform

617
00:42:17.880 --> 00:42:25.830
Nathan McBride: Option? 3. What if they stayed with the current platform form but made changes, and then option? 4.

618
00:42:26.020 --> 00:42:31.050
Nathan McBride: Like, what could you really honestly do if you didn't do this system

619
00:42:31.480 --> 00:42:33.630
Nathan McBride: to improve what you have today.

620
00:42:33.830 --> 00:42:48.319
Nathan McBride: So if you just looked at what you had saying to improve only that, what could you do so? So it's called not one option, and 2 straw men that you know will be thrown away, not one real option and 2 joke options or 3 real options you could actually implement and live with.

621
00:42:48.470 --> 00:42:49.519
Nathan McBride: That's the model.

622
00:42:50.340 --> 00:42:53.100
Nathan McBride: So what it does when they do this slide.

623
00:42:53.280 --> 00:42:54.789
Nathan McBride: And it's hard, right? Because you have

624
00:42:54.790 --> 00:42:56.109
Mike Crispin: Functional liner.

625
00:42:56.320 --> 00:43:01.839
Nathan McBride: Truly believes in our heart that a new platform will be the solution to their problems.

626
00:43:02.290 --> 00:43:05.229
Nathan McBride: Then you take, tell them, yeah. But what if you didn't get it.

627
00:43:05.720 --> 00:43:10.910
Nathan McBride: And you want them to be creative enough to think about if I didn't get it, here's what we would do.

628
00:43:12.270 --> 00:43:19.790
Nathan McBride: Okay, let's suppose you needed X to do y. But you didn't get X, and you had to deal with all the shit you had today. A. Because you live with it

629
00:43:20.030 --> 00:43:22.310
Nathan McBride: on cool.

630
00:43:22.540 --> 00:43:27.179
Nathan McBride: B. Could you make some small improvements to it, or see, is there a no

631
00:43:27.180 --> 00:43:29.410
Mike Crispin: Other alternative you have in for you.

632
00:43:29.750 --> 00:43:31.330
Mike Crispin: That's for prevention.

633
00:43:33.310 --> 00:43:35.760
Nathan McBride: It does a lot of powerful things that fly.

634
00:43:35.760 --> 00:43:39.270
Nathan McBride: I always love going through that because it it breaks them out of false

635
00:43:39.270 --> 00:43:39.909
Mike Crispin: Your choice, now

636
00:43:39.910 --> 00:43:40.530
Nathan McBride: Change.

637
00:43:41.110 --> 00:43:42.910
Nathan McBride: It forces them to get creative

638
00:43:43.260 --> 00:43:49.129
Nathan McBride: about honoring their boundaries and principles, and and it helps me to rethink my principles every time I do it.

639
00:43:49.440 --> 00:43:52.330
Nathan McBride: It shifts the companies from a Yes, no, to which one.

640
00:43:52.870 --> 00:43:55.049
Nathan McBride: and it educates the business partners.

641
00:43:57.520 --> 00:44:01.010
Nathan McBride: You know. I remember if you use a similar slide or not.

642
00:44:01.490 --> 00:44:03.690
Nathan McBride: But do you use a similar process to that?

643
00:44:06.030 --> 00:44:07.689
Nathan McBride: Well in terms of the

644
00:44:10.810 --> 00:44:11.839
Mike Crispin: Just some things.

645
00:44:12.640 --> 00:44:18.130
Nathan McBride: I mean, functional line comes to is they want to put in like, let's say you have a good process today.

646
00:44:18.340 --> 00:44:22.719
Mike Crispin: Yeah, yeah. Ocean line comes and says, we want to put in a platform

647
00:44:25.120 --> 00:44:36.750
Nathan McBride: I mean as a business partner in it, I feel compelled to say to them, okay, let's explore this. But tell me, tell me what? Tell me what's wrong with your current process, and what would happen if you kept using it

648
00:44:38.620 --> 00:44:41.419
Mike Crispin: Yeah, I always think there's a digest of

649
00:44:41.530 --> 00:44:47.570
Mike Crispin: what their current day to day is. What are the processes that they follow? If they, if they have any.

650
00:44:49.350 --> 00:44:54.990
Mike Crispin: My experience just recently more of the new system archetype is

651
00:44:55.570 --> 00:44:58.700
Mike Crispin: based around the sourcing and the support model.

652
00:44:59.420 --> 00:45:09.129
Mike Crispin: whether it's a system or a business service or business process. So it's always that question around, what are you doing today? And where do you want to go?

653
00:45:10.280 --> 00:45:12.679
Mike Crispin: And then we look at systems. It's often a

654
00:45:14.640 --> 00:45:22.740
Mike Crispin: do. Do you? Do you need to do this now? Of course, everyone says, yes. Oh, yeah, we've been waiting to talk to you about this, and we we would.

655
00:45:22.940 --> 00:45:25.250
Mike Crispin: You know, we feel like this is the time to do it.

656
00:45:27.690 --> 00:45:39.659
Mike Crispin: and then it's prioritizing it against the other projects. You know the other things that are happening. But ultimately, having that upfront discussion about, what are you doing today? Where do you want to be tomorrow? What's your timeline?

657
00:45:40.010 --> 00:45:43.930
Mike Crispin: How can we partner on it right right now? Because I think

658
00:45:45.220 --> 00:45:54.600
Mike Crispin: you know, in past lives we've been over, subscribed the projects. And here it's where I'm today. It's kind of just right. So we're able to take the time to have those discussions.

659
00:45:54.830 --> 00:46:00.750
Mike Crispin: And I think, it's often about the current business process, that, as is in the to be

660
00:46:00.930 --> 00:46:02.800
Mike Crispin: discussion and going from there.

661
00:46:02.950 --> 00:46:17.389
Mike Crispin: But then, if there's a need to do a like a request for information or not in our fee or something along those lines that all happens as part of that discussion, just deciding to just go down that road and and formalize it to that extent

662
00:46:17.800 --> 00:46:18.570
Nathan McBride: But do you

663
00:46:18.570 --> 00:46:20.450
Mike Crispin: Lot of systems often today are

664
00:46:21.170 --> 00:46:28.329
Mike Crispin: we're able to have the discussion. And people are coming from different places in a small company. So being will say, these are 2 or 3 solutions.

665
00:46:28.500 --> 00:46:32.870
Mike Crispin: and sometimes you're able to say, Well, this is one we all agree on, and we move forward

666
00:46:32.870 --> 00:46:35.059
Nathan McBride: Alright. But here, here's a theoretical question.

667
00:46:35.170 --> 00:46:39.110
Nathan McBride: Let's suppose that yeah. In your principled world or mine.

668
00:46:39.350 --> 00:46:43.239
Nathan McBride: we believe in a vendor. We've had great success with this vendor in the past. Okay.

669
00:46:43.240 --> 00:46:44.010
Mike Crispin: Sure.

670
00:46:44.700 --> 00:46:51.110
Nathan McBride: And through no influence of our own, the functional line comes forward, says we'd like to use this vendor to solve this problem.

671
00:46:51.580 --> 00:46:51.850
Mike Crispin: Yup!

672
00:46:52.320 --> 00:46:54.070
Nathan McBride: Now your

673
00:46:54.590 --> 00:46:55.969
Mike Crispin: Your principles.

674
00:46:55.970 --> 00:46:58.170
Nathan McBride: Indicate, this is a clear win-win.

675
00:46:59.270 --> 00:47:09.559
Nathan McBride: It's a yeah, it's a, it's a 1 decision, it's or 0 decision. But it's it's 1 that falls within your principal boundaries. But here's the thing. Would you still make them sit down and consider the alternatives.

676
00:47:10.110 --> 00:47:12.610
Nathan McBride: even though it completely aligns with your principles?

677
00:47:14.570 --> 00:47:15.125
Mike Crispin: Well

678
00:47:16.940 --> 00:47:21.660
Nathan McBride: But I would, but I only would. I only would, to make sure that

679
00:47:22.170 --> 00:47:25.979
Nathan McBride: their idea and my idea, shown as the brightest idea

680
00:47:26.500 --> 00:47:30.579
Mike Crispin: Yeah, that that you're aligned. But not only you're aligned, but it's the right choice to make

681
00:47:30.580 --> 00:47:31.410
Nathan McBride: Choice, right.

682
00:47:31.410 --> 00:47:31.940
Mike Crispin: Yeah.

683
00:47:32.640 --> 00:47:38.230
Mike Crispin: yeah, I think for me, the answer is, I aspire to that. But a lot of times it's

684
00:47:38.710 --> 00:47:43.979
Mike Crispin: we know that we can move and we can achieve and get this done. And to go out and do a

685
00:47:44.160 --> 00:47:52.579
Mike Crispin: you know, few weeks worth of research to try and align on something we've already aligned on in a small company setting. I I think I'm more apt to

686
00:47:52.820 --> 00:48:00.470
Mike Crispin: let's go down that road and see where it is, is affecting that our industry knowledge should be somewhat aligned. But if I think

687
00:48:00.730 --> 00:48:08.619
Mike Crispin: you know, with a larger company and many more projects in an enterprise architecture program. It's like, okay, yeah, we should be exploring, no matter what

688
00:48:08.900 --> 00:48:10.900
Mike Crispin: what we're what we're doing.

689
00:48:11.410 --> 00:48:26.469
Mike Crispin: The small Budget small team. If you have a certain level of expertise that could be part of your decision making process this system has been used by, for before by these 2 functions the It organization knows how to support it. It meets the needs of the business.

690
00:48:28.690 --> 00:48:33.029
Mike Crispin: I'm not. I'm not gonna do sort of a an overall analysis on that tool.

691
00:48:33.655 --> 00:48:39.144
Mike Crispin: Let's see, I just just in the honestly, in terms of the smaller smaller business.

692
00:48:39.510 --> 00:48:42.160
Nathan McBride: I get that point. That's that's a valid point. I think

693
00:48:42.340 --> 00:48:45.819
Nathan McBride: the one benefit from, from, even if you have alignment.

694
00:48:46.050 --> 00:48:48.109
Nathan McBride: And while it seems like, Oh, my God! We have alignment

695
00:48:48.110 --> 00:48:50.009
Mike Crispin: It's clarity. It's yeah.

696
00:48:50.470 --> 00:48:55.120
Nathan McBride: I think I think what you can do is you can actually use that alignment to your advantage. So

697
00:48:55.120 --> 00:48:55.710
Mike Crispin: Yep.

698
00:48:56.290 --> 00:49:07.100
Nathan McBride: If you have a business partner, and they come forward and want the thing that you already think is their best option. But you then walk them through what the other options would be. You follow the 3 options, rule.

699
00:49:07.100 --> 00:49:10.739
Nathan McBride: It can strengthen your your position exactly complete, you know.

700
00:49:10.740 --> 00:49:14.189
Nathan McBride: gives you credibility for future analyses, where you don't necessarily align

701
00:49:14.390 --> 00:49:21.149
Mike Crispin: That's right, you know, you're following the same process each time, and they have that you set that expectation right. So I totally understand where

702
00:49:21.150 --> 00:49:27.270
Nathan McBride: That's the only reason I would do that. And of course, in my heart of hearts I'm like absolutely fucking. Lutely. We're doing that

703
00:49:27.270 --> 00:49:28.530
Mike Crispin: Hey, let's let's get this done

704
00:49:28.640 --> 00:49:34.040
Nathan McBride: Yeah, but that's not what the lft stands for. By the way, that's too many words.

705
00:49:34.190 --> 00:49:38.350
Nathan McBride: It's only 3 words, LFG. It's not. Let's get this done.

706
00:49:38.480 --> 00:49:39.849
Nathan McBride: I don't know if you knew that or not.

707
00:49:40.070 --> 00:49:43.270
Mike Crispin: Oh, I thought it meant, let's get this job done

708
00:49:43.740 --> 00:49:46.380
Nathan McBride: Nope, it's not Lgtj. D.

709
00:49:46.380 --> 00:49:49.540
Nathan McBride: So this is 3 letter words 3 3 letters LFG.

710
00:49:50.220 --> 00:49:50.910
Mike Crispin: Oh!

711
00:49:51.120 --> 00:49:51.650
Nathan McBride: No.

712
00:49:52.410 --> 00:49:53.520
Mike Crispin: Let's

713
00:49:54.590 --> 00:50:00.010
Nathan McBride: Yeah, you think about it, don't, don't just? We have to the end of the podcast episode. So you think about it.

714
00:50:00.010 --> 00:50:02.259
Mike Crispin: I don't know. I gotta figure out what that means.

715
00:50:03.230 --> 00:50:05.429
Nathan McBride: So if you're thinking about doing a free options rule

716
00:50:05.560 --> 00:50:14.980
Nathan McBride: at your company, you haven't yet. 1st of all, let me just be clear. You're gonna need some kind of project preparation governance. You need some kind of it. Governance in place. Don't just do this

717
00:50:15.130 --> 00:50:23.720
Nathan McBride: because it won't work. If you have the sort of building blocks of an It Pmo, or even a general Pmo, or even basic prioritization.

718
00:50:23.840 --> 00:50:31.189
Nathan McBride: Then be curious about alternatives and make it part of the corporate culture to be curious about alternatives.

719
00:50:31.750 --> 00:50:33.600
Nathan McBride: so don't just make it like you're a roadblock

720
00:50:33.600 --> 00:50:33.960
Mike Crispin: That's

721
00:50:33.960 --> 00:50:35.520
Nathan McBride: But approach it as an exploration.

722
00:50:36.460 --> 00:50:41.160
Nathan McBride: a not a holy shit. We gotta do this functional requirement thing again.

723
00:50:41.970 --> 00:50:42.450
Nathan McBride: That's

724
00:50:42.450 --> 00:50:50.150
Nathan McBride: it's not gonna win you any hearts and minds you want to be like. Oh, my God! That's a great idea! What are all the alternatives? Let's go through them together. I'll help you.

725
00:50:50.587 --> 00:50:58.929
Nathan McBride: Number 2 always get diverse perspectives. So don't just ask the functional line figure out who else in the company this is going to impact and get their opinions

726
00:50:59.130 --> 00:50:59.690
Mike Crispin: Yep.

727
00:51:00.150 --> 00:51:06.669
Nathan McBride: Different backgrounds. See things differently. Just a fact. Always use a consistent framework.

728
00:51:07.220 --> 00:51:14.749
Nathan McBride: Okay, so don't just give favorites to the ones that you really like, and then screw everybody else over. Make every single thing objective.

729
00:51:15.631 --> 00:51:19.150
Nathan McBride: Don't prejudge the outcome, even if it's amazing alignment.

730
00:51:19.260 --> 00:51:26.009
Nathan McBride: You never know I get surprised sometimes myself, and lastly, and lastly, document the shit out of it.

731
00:51:27.060 --> 00:51:30.499
Nathan McBride: and revisit it later, and do a postmortem like if you really have troop

732
00:51:30.820 --> 00:51:37.270
Nathan McBride: true it governance in place. After you've approved it. After you've implemented it, you'll come back and you'll revisit your decision

733
00:51:38.350 --> 00:51:39.630
Mike Crispin: How are we doing?

734
00:51:39.910 --> 00:51:44.540
Mike Crispin: Sure that'd be great? Thank you very much. Thank you.

735
00:51:46.670 --> 00:51:49.500
Nathan McBride: Okay. So anyway, we

736
00:51:50.400 --> 00:51:54.450
Nathan McBride: we we've covered a lot already. But we have a couple more things. We gotta get through here because

737
00:51:54.450 --> 00:51:55.120
Mike Crispin: Sure. Yeah.

738
00:51:56.360 --> 00:51:59.860
Nathan McBride: One of the things I want to talk about that I mentioned earlier was breaking rules.

739
00:52:00.000 --> 00:52:06.929
Nathan McBride: So I'm I'm an I'm a in the world of dungeons and dragons. I'm lawfully chaotic.

740
00:52:07.320 --> 00:52:12.420
Nathan McBride: which means I'll do what it takes to get the job done. But without harming humans.

741
00:52:13.924 --> 00:52:16.489
Nathan McBride: I'm not. I'm not evil chaotic, by the way.

742
00:52:17.040 --> 00:52:21.389
Nathan McBride: that sounds really enticing to be that. But I've always stated sort of like the

743
00:52:21.390 --> 00:52:25.439
Mike Crispin: Are you a dungeon? You've been dungeon mastering recently or not.

744
00:52:25.440 --> 00:52:26.990
Nathan McBride: Ever DM'd in my life

745
00:52:27.240 --> 00:52:27.840
Mike Crispin: Oh!

746
00:52:27.840 --> 00:52:30.840
Nathan McBride: I I feel like I have the creative skills to do it.

747
00:52:30.840 --> 00:52:31.339
Mike Crispin: Lot of work.

748
00:52:31.340 --> 00:52:33.629
Nathan McBride: Nobody would want to be part of my dungeons.

749
00:52:35.630 --> 00:52:39.239
Nathan McBride: cause I would. I would just make it too complicated

750
00:52:39.600 --> 00:52:41.949
Mike Crispin: That's like I'm imagining what that might be like.

751
00:52:41.950 --> 00:52:44.890
Nathan McBride: You've tripped on a rock. You're dead. Wait! What is the wait? What happened?

752
00:52:44.890 --> 00:52:46.431
Mike Crispin: Where'd that rock come from?

753
00:52:47.142 --> 00:52:48.350
Nathan McBride: What's a snake

754
00:52:48.870 --> 00:52:50.450
Mike Crispin: What's the rock's name?

755
00:52:50.450 --> 00:52:52.940
Nathan McBride: People I don't think would want to be in my dungeon.

756
00:52:55.690 --> 00:52:56.759
Mike Crispin: Oh, my goodness!

757
00:52:56.760 --> 00:52:59.990
Nathan McBride: Anyway. It's a breaking rule.

758
00:52:59.990 --> 00:53:00.640
Mike Crispin: In the rules.

759
00:53:00.640 --> 00:53:01.190
Nathan McBride: Okay.

760
00:53:01.530 --> 00:53:05.470
Nathan McBride: there's a lot to impact here. And this could be a full episode. We may have to come back to this, but

761
00:53:06.770 --> 00:53:09.599
Nathan McBride: so sometimes you will have to violate your established boundaries.

762
00:53:10.960 --> 00:53:13.000
Nathan McBride: Things change, technologies evolve

763
00:53:13.000 --> 00:53:14.119
Mike Crispin: Thank you very much.

764
00:53:14.120 --> 00:53:16.400
Nathan McBride: Businesses go through pivots.

765
00:53:16.640 --> 00:53:17.649
Mike Crispin: It's the key.

766
00:53:17.810 --> 00:53:21.619
Nathan McBride: Whenever possible through it, consciously, transparently, and with a plan.

767
00:53:21.920 --> 00:53:30.099
Nathan McBride: Don't ever pivot with your own silent plan, or or you can do that if you're an end of one, but probably even then it's not good

768
00:53:30.460 --> 00:53:31.210
Mike Crispin: Secret.

769
00:53:31.210 --> 00:53:36.740
Nathan McBride: Top secret plan. Break open when ready will will burn in 10 seconds.

770
00:53:36.740 --> 00:53:37.280
Mike Crispin: Yes.

771
00:53:37.480 --> 00:53:39.600
Nathan McBride: Self-destructing messages

772
00:53:40.220 --> 00:53:47.750
Nathan McBride: I started thinking about like, sort of what are my rule? My, what are my rule? Principles like for breaking rules? And it's kind of not good

773
00:53:48.386 --> 00:53:59.819
Nathan McBride: in general, but I kind of made them. I reformatted them. I used a little bit of not grammarly gemini magic to sort of make mine sound better than what I actually wrote.

774
00:54:00.070 --> 00:54:10.190
Nathan McBride: But number one, if you're gonna have a rule breaking exception document, the violation and the reasoning. Okay, so

775
00:54:10.300 --> 00:54:16.620
Nathan McBride: what boundary am I violating, and why and what business need is causing me to violate this boundary?

776
00:54:16.800 --> 00:54:17.349
Nathan McBride: And what

777
00:54:17.350 --> 00:54:18.610
Mike Crispin: Is this discoverable

778
00:54:20.920 --> 00:54:23.010
Nathan McBride: It depends on what you mean by discoverable

779
00:54:23.010 --> 00:54:26.649
Mike Crispin: Is it? Is it saved on the company server under the desk

780
00:54:27.060 --> 00:54:31.840
Nathan McBride: Yes, but very very generic

781
00:54:31.840 --> 00:54:34.380
Mike Crispin: Derek. Not all company emails, don't you?

782
00:54:34.380 --> 00:54:35.410
Nathan McBride: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

783
00:54:35.410 --> 00:54:35.970
Mike Crispin: Yeah.

784
00:54:36.370 --> 00:54:40.040
Nathan McBride: But by by having this log like. Here's why I broke this rule.

785
00:54:40.410 --> 00:54:43.970
Nathan McBride: I don't write it like that. I write like, here's why I made an exception.

786
00:54:44.490 --> 00:54:46.449
Nathan McBride: I don't never say break the rule. By the way.

787
00:54:46.450 --> 00:54:48.619
Mike Crispin: Here's why I did not follow that policy

788
00:54:48.620 --> 00:54:50.799
Nathan McBride: For I violated my own policy.

789
00:54:50.800 --> 00:54:52.780
Nathan McBride: Don't write that, by the way.

790
00:54:52.780 --> 00:54:59.989
Mike Crispin: Don't tell him you were at a bar. I was at a pornography store. I was buying pornography

791
00:54:59.990 --> 00:55:04.519
Nathan McBride: When I do this like, I'm a data, just a data.

792
00:55:05.515 --> 00:55:08.039
Nathan McBride: What are the people that I'm a hoarder

793
00:55:08.440 --> 00:55:09.140
Mike Crispin: Yes.

794
00:55:09.300 --> 00:55:14.069
Nathan McBride: And so it helps me identify patterns that I can use later about my boundaries.

795
00:55:14.220 --> 00:55:24.519
Nathan McBride: like, if I keep doing the same thing over again, am I? Have I? Have I just gone insane, or like? What else is wrong with me, that I keep making this violation? And is the boundary too strict.

796
00:55:24.860 --> 00:55:29.990
Nathan McBride: Number 2. Set a timeline for review. If you're gonna make an exception.

797
00:55:30.488 --> 00:55:32.480
Nathan McBride: circle back and review it.

798
00:55:33.620 --> 00:55:42.399
Nathan McBride: And okay, I made this one exception for this one time for this one thing that happened. Now can I go back to resetting this world to the way it was before the exception?

799
00:55:44.130 --> 00:55:49.019
Nathan McBride: So something to consider. Now change control, I think, will save your bacon every time there

800
00:55:49.493 --> 00:55:59.779
Nathan McBride: you can put changes that you feel like will violate your boundaries under change control. It doesn't. It's not like a get out of jail free card, but it is kind of like a hey.

801
00:56:00.170 --> 00:56:04.579
Nathan McBride: I had to block gmail.com from our

802
00:56:04.960 --> 00:56:08.380
Nathan McBride: our email servers because I was tired of Sam

803
00:56:09.180 --> 00:56:10.000
Mike Crispin: 6 months later.

804
00:56:10.310 --> 00:56:14.610
Nathan McBride: 6 months later. Well, we've had no spam, but

805
00:56:14.610 --> 00:56:16.430
Mike Crispin: The directors can't email us anymore.

806
00:56:16.430 --> 00:56:17.580
Nathan McBride: Right. Exactly

807
00:56:18.640 --> 00:56:23.116
Nathan McBride: so. Was that a good choice? And is there more of a middle ground we can take?

808
00:56:23.870 --> 00:56:34.249
Nathan McBride: I already said this. I call these compensating controls instead of cover my ass procedures. But compensating controls is a very legal sort of like safe term.

809
00:56:34.420 --> 00:56:49.984
Nathan McBride: But like, okay, so I'm gonna go ahead and violate this boundary. What compensating controls do I have? And then I'm like, well, here they are, just a undo the thing I just did, or B like whatever else is going to happen. But,

810
00:56:51.540 --> 00:56:55.950
Nathan McBride: Whenever you're going to make a clear violation of one of your principled boundaries.

811
00:56:56.350 --> 00:57:00.630
Nathan McBride: it's also good, I think, to have an understanding of how you would get out of this problem.

812
00:57:01.838 --> 00:57:06.140
Nathan McBride: And you should do this for basically every single thing ever in our risk mitigation plan.

813
00:57:06.140 --> 00:57:07.050
Mike Crispin: Good strategy.

814
00:57:07.340 --> 00:57:10.418
Nathan McBride: Yeah, this is especially important to have this one

815
00:57:11.830 --> 00:57:26.541
Nathan McBride: escalation thresholds. So not all boundary violations are equal like a minor exception. Oh, just for this one second I'm gonna give myself 1 million dollar, invoice approval. And then I'm gonna turn it right back to half a million right

816
00:57:26.900 --> 00:57:28.369
Mike Crispin: Why did I do that?

817
00:57:28.610 --> 00:57:30.319
Nathan McBride: Maybe that's not a minor exception, but

818
00:57:31.840 --> 00:57:38.440
Nathan McBride: find your thresholds and then have them again. This is one of those documented things, but why? You might have to make a

819
00:57:38.440 --> 00:57:40.820
Nathan McBride: exceptions, and what there's boundaries are.

820
00:57:41.060 --> 00:57:51.970
Nathan McBride: And then, as always, every single thing you do can be learned from. So, as I mentioned, go back and evaluate whether your change should have been done. But even more than that.

821
00:57:52.990 --> 00:57:59.530
Nathan McBride: if you keep having to make the same violations, you probably have a bigger problem somewhere upstream

822
00:58:01.230 --> 00:58:02.049
Mike Crispin: No, if it's a

823
00:58:02.050 --> 00:58:02.590
Nathan McBride: That's it.

824
00:58:03.400 --> 00:58:07.559
Mike Crispin: A a good idea or not, but I've thought about it on and off in the past.

825
00:58:07.930 --> 00:58:10.260
Mike Crispin: Do you think it makes sense to have

826
00:58:11.340 --> 00:58:16.179
Mike Crispin: sort of a more of a a journaling approach

827
00:58:16.920 --> 00:58:18.589
Mike Crispin: that you almost keep a journal

828
00:58:19.410 --> 00:58:20.060
Nathan McBride: Honestly.

829
00:58:20.060 --> 00:58:25.879
Mike Crispin: A work based journal like in terms of some of these like that, might be less formal than you know, capturing it in.

830
00:58:26.180 --> 00:58:36.009
Mike Crispin: But just sort of go through your week and just write down some of the even if they're not exceptions. You know things that you're doing and kind of be able to reflect. That's not a personal journal, but more of a

831
00:58:36.010 --> 00:58:39.980
Nathan McBride: I know the truth. I wish I had this.

832
00:58:40.320 --> 00:58:48.490
Nathan McBride: I've always ever had this for so long. You know how like at the beginning of every Star Trek episode, star, date, blah, blah blah. Today we came across

833
00:58:48.800 --> 00:58:50.629
Nathan McBride: a species that have 3 heads

834
00:58:51.020 --> 00:58:51.580
Mike Crispin: Yep.

835
00:58:52.010 --> 00:58:56.469
Nathan McBride: I would love that if I took I would love to take the time every day 10 min.

836
00:58:56.830 --> 00:59:02.180
Nathan McBride: and recapture like a a voice journal or something.

837
00:59:02.860 --> 00:59:10.570
Nathan McBride: And like this is obviously there's, there's tons of technology. Do this. But imagine having a log that captured you like a Jarvis

838
00:59:11.720 --> 00:59:12.400
Nathan McBride: today.

839
00:59:12.770 --> 00:59:14.380
Mike Crispin: Yup, here's

840
00:59:14.380 --> 00:59:19.690
Nathan McBride: All the shit you did today, all the violations you accepted or made exceptions for all the things

841
00:59:20.940 --> 00:59:24.139
Mike Crispin: I mean, how much of that stuff do you forget? I'd say it's 80%

842
00:59:24.140 --> 00:59:25.050
Nathan McBride: Oh, easily!

843
00:59:25.180 --> 00:59:28.979
Mike Crispin: Maybe more like all the things you've done achieved, who you've spoken to

844
00:59:29.490 --> 00:59:31.510
Nathan McBride: Because you're walking down the hallway, and someone's like, Hey.

845
00:59:31.510 --> 00:59:32.160
Mike Crispin: Parents, is

846
00:59:32.160 --> 00:59:36.370
Nathan McBride: Hey? By the way, and you're like, no problem. Whip out your phone, make the change. Okay? You're good to go.

847
00:59:36.870 --> 00:59:42.859
Nathan McBride: Cause you know. Obviously the ex is very, very big and important. But you get back to your office

848
00:59:43.130 --> 00:59:47.229
Nathan McBride: and you're like, did I? Just I just talked to somebody, didn't I in the hallway? Who did I talk to?

849
00:59:48.010 --> 00:59:50.730
Mike Crispin: I mean, it's different fundamentally than taking notes.

850
00:59:50.960 --> 00:59:57.049
Mike Crispin: It's more about you, like, yeah, it's journaling. You're writing this story. You're writing your, your.

851
00:59:57.560 --> 01:00:04.449
Mike Crispin: how you feel, what it's, how it's affected you, what decisions you've made, and why, or things that you feel like you need to capture

852
01:00:04.790 --> 01:00:08.609
Nathan McBride: There. There are Silicon Valley people that are documented that have created

853
01:00:09.031 --> 01:00:20.430
Nathan McBride: systems where they just can talk to it and records everything. Every thought. They have. Everything they think about all day long is just being recorded right? I guess you know about this idea. And then being able to reflect on myself

854
01:00:20.690 --> 01:00:29.279
Nathan McBride: and the the stupid shit that passes through my brain every single day from 4 Am. To 10 pm. The millions of little Google keep notes and all the things I make

855
01:00:29.500 --> 01:00:32.109
Nathan McBride: that just drift around in there.

856
01:00:32.280 --> 01:00:39.389
Nathan McBride: But along the way all the decisions I'm making without even thinking about making decisions. And this is this is the worst thing that you can do is

857
01:00:40.410 --> 01:00:43.330
Nathan McBride: like the worst thing anyone can do is pretend they're not violating their own principles.

858
01:00:43.850 --> 01:00:44.300
Mike Crispin: Yep.

859
01:00:44.750 --> 01:00:47.760
Nathan McBride: That's a cognitive dissonance. 101.

860
01:00:48.380 --> 01:00:51.960
Nathan McBride: Oh, I held all my principals to say freaking bullshit

861
01:00:52.120 --> 01:00:52.580
Mike Crispin: I'm trying

862
01:00:52.580 --> 01:00:54.370
Nathan McBride: So many amendments to your

863
01:00:54.370 --> 01:00:55.240
Mike Crispin: And the principal

864
01:00:55.240 --> 01:00:58.440
Nathan McBride: Today because you came up with all these 0 1 choice

865
01:00:58.440 --> 01:00:59.580
Mike Crispin: This is Yup.

866
01:00:59.580 --> 01:01:02.170
Nathan McBride: Hundreds of them. Right? That's how principals die.

867
01:01:02.620 --> 01:01:06.060
Mike Crispin: A lot of people don't even realize that they they're

868
01:01:06.710 --> 01:01:15.970
Mike Crispin: they're not following their principles. It's impossible to know sometimes right? I mean, in terms of how you make decisions. Decisions. You make people. You talk to actions you take.

869
01:01:16.100 --> 01:01:18.809
Mike Crispin: We may very well not even realize that

870
01:01:19.030 --> 01:01:22.349
Mike Crispin: you you thought yesterday differently than you do today

871
01:01:22.930 --> 01:01:27.150
Nathan McBride: Oh, but we're not eating our own dog food, I mean, ultimately, the worst thing you can do is

872
01:01:27.680 --> 01:01:29.770
Nathan McBride: pretend you're not violating our principles.

873
01:01:30.150 --> 01:01:34.220
Nathan McBride: We're not pretending we're not, but that's how principles die. I mean, principals die

874
01:01:34.500 --> 01:01:40.039
Nathan McBride: not through like a conscious rejection, but through a thousand little undocumented exceptions.

875
01:01:41.160 --> 01:01:44.369
Nathan McBride: And and so at the end of the day I have to sit back and say.

876
01:01:44.780 --> 01:01:51.970
Nathan McBride: Well, I don't do this, but if I did do this, I'd have to sit back and say what are actually my principles now? Because I made so many exceptions today.

877
01:01:52.550 --> 01:01:53.760
Nathan McBride: do I have a new principal

878
01:01:53.760 --> 01:01:55.300
Mike Crispin: Yeah, yeah, should I change

879
01:01:55.300 --> 01:01:57.712
Nathan McBride: Should I change? What should I be doing? So?

880
01:01:57.980 --> 01:01:59.990
Mike Crispin: Principles can change

881
01:02:00.510 --> 01:02:01.760
Nathan McBride: Let's talk about like

882
01:02:02.340 --> 01:02:09.769
Nathan McBride: Octa is a great example. So oh, my God, we're all, Saml, we're all sso my company's blah blah. We're so great on this.

883
01:02:09.890 --> 01:02:15.299
Nathan McBride: All systems must support Saml. We will not put in. The company must support Saml. That's our policy.

884
01:02:15.500 --> 01:02:16.440
Nathan McBride: And then

885
01:02:16.550 --> 01:02:21.019
Nathan McBride: and the immediate, the minute. You say that the very next thing you do is you make exceptions to that rule.

886
01:02:22.140 --> 01:02:31.500
Nathan McBride: Oh, well, just this one platform. We'll let it go without Saml. And this next platform until basically, you no longer have a principle. Your principle is a joke of itself.

887
01:02:33.307 --> 01:02:36.589
Nathan McBride: So like that's the key is.

888
01:02:38.190 --> 01:02:42.866
Nathan McBride: I don't know. There has to be some middle ground right? I don't have an answer. By the way.

889
01:02:43.100 --> 01:02:55.279
Mike Crispin: Well, the middle ground is that there are exceptions, and that you document them as such, like you've recommended. I think that is the middle ground is that you have a record. You have reasons. You have

890
01:02:55.850 --> 01:02:58.210
Mike Crispin: you like. If you take a

891
01:02:58.320 --> 01:03:06.530
Mike Crispin: jeez like you don't want to have deviations right? But you document them, and you show your action plan. And you.

892
01:03:06.750 --> 01:03:08.260
Mike Crispin: This is life.

893
01:03:08.699 --> 01:03:17.049
Mike Crispin: and and you can. That's why these things exist, and there's no reason why you can't incorporate that into some of your own decision making and

894
01:03:17.190 --> 01:03:18.380
Mike Crispin: record keeping.

895
01:03:18.550 --> 01:03:20.360
Mike Crispin: That's why I like the the

896
01:03:20.680 --> 01:03:26.070
Mike Crispin: thought process around the journal is ultimately you may not be formally documenting them.

897
01:03:27.380 --> 01:03:34.889
Mike Crispin: Yeah, depending on where you come from and knows what the right idea of that is. It's what you actually want to document what you don't.

898
01:03:35.310 --> 01:03:39.989
Mike Crispin: but for yourself in your private journals, in your memoir.

899
01:03:40.820 --> 01:03:45.359
Mike Crispin: right? I mean, for you to be able to write these things down for yourself

900
01:03:45.490 --> 01:03:47.890
Mike Crispin: is important, and why you did them, and

901
01:03:48.820 --> 01:03:54.620
Mike Crispin: a fun reflection on those things years later. It can help mold your principles for the next.

902
01:03:55.050 --> 01:04:00.349
Mike Crispin: Yeah, a lot of principles are hard to change, and you know I get that. But sometimes, when you have the

903
01:04:01.080 --> 01:04:03.450
Mike Crispin: reference to go back and look at

904
01:04:04.450 --> 01:04:08.979
Mike Crispin: so many other things probably go through your brain a day that you forget why you

905
01:04:09.190 --> 01:04:10.939
Mike Crispin: may have changed your mind.

906
01:04:11.420 --> 01:04:17.260
Mike Crispin: and how you could have been so crazy until you review that information and go. Oh, my goodness! Now I get it! I

907
01:04:18.180 --> 01:04:21.443
Mike Crispin: no, you're gonna forget stuff. The older you get too

908
01:04:21.770 --> 01:04:26.189
Nathan McBride: Do you think? And there's there's no wrong answer to this question. But do you think that there's a

909
01:04:26.710 --> 01:04:38.629
Nathan McBride: there's no governance today? Of all the governance models I've seen. There's no there's no governance model that truly does this, I mean, I guess prioritization probably comes closest. But having a decision framework.

910
01:04:38.970 --> 01:04:43.789
Nathan McBride: So a decision framework where you're taking. And again.

911
01:04:43.920 --> 01:04:51.950
Nathan McBride: yeah, it doesn't exist because we're talking about 4 pillars. Right? So autonomy innovation risk and collaboration.

912
01:04:52.180 --> 01:04:56.550
Nathan McBride: So if you took those 4 pillars and you had a framework for decisions

913
01:04:57.010 --> 01:04:57.900
Mike Crispin: Yeah.

914
01:04:58.670 --> 01:05:04.839
Nathan McBride: You could ask questions like, how does this decision affect our autonomy?

915
01:05:05.580 --> 01:05:10.510
Nathan McBride: Or what risk boundaries are relevant here in decision right now, given the number

916
01:05:11.970 --> 01:05:20.030
Nathan McBride: make that violate principles. I mean, you couldn't do this in a form base because it would take forever. You never get anything done, but you could still

917
01:05:20.950 --> 01:05:25.130
Nathan McBride: even capture the high level ones. Right? And I'm not. I don't want to be bureaucratic

918
01:05:25.260 --> 01:05:26.580
Mike Crispin: It doesn't have to be

919
01:05:27.170 --> 01:05:31.480
Nathan McBride: But the format gives you an opportunity to sort of track these things.

920
01:05:32.460 --> 01:05:35.622
Nathan McBride: and I and I would I would bake this into my

921
01:05:37.270 --> 01:05:50.079
Nathan McBride: If I had to find a place to insert this, I would insert it into my it prioritization framework, where not only is the business being called to the table to justify their spending decisions, but it is being called the table to justify their their choices

922
01:05:51.100 --> 01:05:51.910
Mike Crispin: Yep.

923
01:05:53.465 --> 01:05:53.890
Nathan McBride: But

924
01:05:53.890 --> 01:05:59.959
Mike Crispin: You can apply it to the same sort of decision making funnel just with different criteria. I think if it's

925
01:06:00.230 --> 01:06:00.900
Nathan McBride: Yeah.

926
01:06:00.930 --> 01:06:02.669
Mike Crispin: You need a basic model

927
01:06:03.480 --> 01:06:04.190
Nathan McBride: And I

928
01:06:05.000 --> 01:06:16.239
Nathan McBride: I I every single time I think about how I'm gonna talk about this stuff I keep thinking about, I'm just creating more work right? Ultimately by even having this decision and just discussing principles. We're just making paperwork form

929
01:06:16.240 --> 01:06:20.060
Nathan McBride: tables, database. Yep, the goal is

930
01:06:20.200 --> 01:06:23.599
Nathan McBride: not to build a culture that's so pretty much

931
01:06:23.600 --> 01:06:26.929
Nathan McBride: hold in decision making that every single choice is to go through committee

932
01:06:27.660 --> 01:06:28.930
Mike Crispin: I took.

933
01:06:28.930 --> 01:06:34.920
Mike Crispin: That's the middle road component you're you're you're you're getting to is if you

934
01:06:35.950 --> 01:06:40.049
Mike Crispin: let's face it. You know, you could have a 5 page

935
01:06:40.050 --> 01:06:47.410
Mike Crispin: form no one is ever going to do unless there's strong man, Dave, that they absolutely must

936
01:06:47.680 --> 01:06:48.320
Nathan McBride: Yeah.

937
01:06:50.350 --> 01:06:51.260
Mike Crispin: I mean.

938
01:06:53.550 --> 01:07:00.760
Mike Crispin: people will just look at it as more work, especially if they only have to do it a couple of times a year. It's just how do you make it? Simple bite sized.

939
01:07:02.040 --> 01:07:10.080
Mike Crispin: you know. Attention. Span a couple of quick decisions. But you start with a small pulse type

940
01:07:10.400 --> 01:07:10.900
Nathan McBride: With

941
01:07:10.900 --> 01:07:19.069
Mike Crispin: Requirements gathering model, and then figure out if any red bells go off based on those 4 questions, and then you do a follow up.

942
01:07:19.430 --> 01:07:22.409
Mike Crispin: I mean, it's just it's so hard right now, unless

943
01:07:22.510 --> 01:07:27.100
Mike Crispin: you're in a bigger, yeah, keep saying bigger company, because there's already so many other processes in place

944
01:07:27.100 --> 01:07:28.370
Nathan McBride: It's your gonna be one more

945
01:07:28.370 --> 01:07:31.549
Nathan McBride: bigger company. You think it'd be harder in a bigger company than a small company

946
01:07:32.330 --> 01:07:38.540
Mike Crispin: I don't. I? I think it would be just as hard, but I think the norms of the business that hey? We got to go through all this

947
01:07:38.830 --> 01:07:42.190
Mike Crispin: bureaucracy to get stuff done. You'd just be one more thing

948
01:07:42.640 --> 01:07:43.360
Nathan McBride: Like.

949
01:07:43.980 --> 01:07:49.089
Mike Crispin: Would, the expectation would be shattered that you're the only department that has someone fill out a form for a new hire

950
01:07:49.840 --> 01:07:54.810
Mike Crispin: like that's the stuff that it's like, why can't I just email you? Why can't I just call you on the phone

951
01:07:55.170 --> 01:08:02.159
Mike Crispin: where it's a not more fundamentally process? Driven organization. People might be used to actually going to a website and doing something

952
01:08:04.010 --> 01:08:13.810
Nathan McBride: This brings up an interesting problem. And and honestly, my path comes across this more often than not because of who I help out there in the in the life science, industry. But

953
01:08:14.070 --> 01:08:16.790
Nathan McBride: you can't expect your team.

954
01:08:18.229 --> 01:08:22.799
Nathan McBride: You can't make your team to respect boundaries that you continuously, casually violate

955
01:08:23.160 --> 01:08:23.600
Mike Crispin: That's right.

956
01:08:23.609 --> 01:08:29.979
Nathan McBride: So like, if you have a principal every single time you make an exception to your own process, you're basically teaching your team that

957
01:08:29.979 --> 01:08:30.859
Mike Crispin: Yup, it's okay.

958
01:08:31.138 --> 01:08:34.020
Nathan McBride: The boundaries are unimportant. Just go ahead, you you can

959
01:08:34.029 --> 01:08:36.689
Nathan McBride: can't actually ever come back and say, Why did you do that?

960
01:08:37.469 --> 01:08:38.249
Nathan McBride: There's a boundary.

961
01:08:38.250 --> 01:08:39.130
Nathan McBride: The person's gonna be

962
01:08:39.130 --> 01:08:40.580
Mike Crispin: Yeah, you did it last week

963
01:08:40.580 --> 01:08:42.249
Nathan McBride: You constantly violate it.

964
01:08:42.500 --> 01:08:43.173
Nathan McBride: Yup.

965
01:08:45.080 --> 01:08:48.919
Nathan McBride: But at the same time you don't want to be so overly

966
01:08:50.141 --> 01:08:57.000
Nathan McBride: focused on rewarding people that follow boundaries like, Oh, my God! Such a great job! On blocking all those requests last week

967
01:08:57.170 --> 01:08:57.770
Mike Crispin: Yeah.

968
01:08:58.149 --> 01:09:06.039
Nathan McBride: No, we want to go the other direction, right? Which is fine again. You said Middle ground several times. Just the middle ground, and it's like.

969
01:09:06.889 --> 01:09:12.149
Nathan McBride: We haven't talked about paradoxes in a while, but I have one for you. The boundary paradox

970
01:09:12.689 --> 01:09:13.609
Mike Crispin: Okay.

971
01:09:14.729 --> 01:09:15.609
Nathan McBride: And this is gonna

972
01:09:15.609 --> 01:09:19.199
Nathan McBride: sound really weird. So I'm just gonna say it. And then I'll let you sort of think about it.

973
01:09:19.369 --> 01:09:24.439
Nathan McBride: The clearer your boundaries are, the more flexibility you have

974
01:09:25.029 --> 01:09:27.429
Mike Crispin: Yep, I agree.

975
01:09:27.600 --> 01:09:32.639
Nathan McBride: When boundaries are vague, people become risk averse because they don't know where the line is.

976
01:09:33.140 --> 01:09:37.410
Nathan McBride: they stay far away from the perceived edge to avoid accidentally crossing them.

977
01:09:37.850 --> 01:09:45.840
Nathan McBride: This creates an invisible buffer zone of unnecessary restricted behavior. I have no idea where the boundary is, so I stay way. The fuck inside of it

978
01:09:46.220 --> 01:09:47.800
Nathan McBride: what I think it is right.

979
01:09:48.540 --> 01:09:51.100
Mike Crispin: They go that much farther across the other sides

980
01:09:51.359 --> 01:10:02.809
Nathan McBride: Exactly the ones that the ones basically with the organizations I've been in with the fuzziest governance tend to be the most conservative and risk, averse the ones with the the most propensity for 0 decisions.

981
01:10:03.499 --> 01:10:14.179
Nathan McBride: while the ones with the clearest boundaries. Here is where you must stop. You cannot go past this point or after, like the most innovative and agile because you've explained why the point is there?

982
01:10:15.695 --> 01:10:21.559
Nathan McBride: Okay, the point is here. Because if we go past this point we are operating on a code

983
01:10:22.049 --> 01:10:25.729
Nathan McBride: base that we have no control over or whatever the

984
01:10:26.580 --> 01:10:27.430
Mike Crispin: Anyway.

985
01:10:27.430 --> 01:10:28.150
Nathan McBride: That's right.

986
01:10:29.290 --> 01:10:32.970
Nathan McBride: That's what I think is the the paradox there. Ironic

987
01:10:32.970 --> 01:10:40.819
Mike Crispin: Well, it's it's expectation setting, too. Right? So it's like, I know exactly what to expect. I know exactly what I am supposed to do and what rules to follow.

988
01:10:40.980 --> 01:10:51.040
Mike Crispin: But if it's kind of like oh, I saw that, you know Jack and Jennifer were able to go do this, and maybe I can, too. That's really not a. It's not really a boundary. It's kind of a

989
01:10:51.500 --> 01:10:53.039
Mike Crispin: you know. It's a dotted line

990
01:10:53.830 --> 01:10:57.360
Nathan McBride: So I'm gonna be able to either get away with more, or I'm just not even gonna bother

991
01:10:57.610 --> 01:11:02.619
Mike Crispin: So it's i i I hear you and I agree. I think, that the better.

992
01:11:03.130 --> 01:11:05.140
Mike Crispin: That's part of the sell around

993
01:11:05.840 --> 01:11:13.180
Mike Crispin: having rules is that when you have rules and everyone aligns in the rules, you can do more.

994
01:11:13.550 --> 01:11:17.670
Mike Crispin: I mean, yeah, I. So I I agree 100%.

995
01:11:17.860 --> 01:11:23.549
Mike Crispin: So that boundary component, and then, being clear, enables businesses

996
01:11:24.690 --> 01:11:25.360
Nathan McBride: Yeah, and

997
01:11:25.360 --> 01:11:26.320
Mike Crispin: Success.

998
01:11:26.320 --> 01:11:32.040
Nathan McBride: Like the the oftentimes. What sounds to you as an It leader to be like a clear, succinct.

999
01:11:32.190 --> 01:11:37.870
Nathan McBride: even Gartner eyes statement like always protect our sensitive data in the cloud

1000
01:11:37.980 --> 01:11:43.240
Nathan McBride: can be the most mistranslated statement that you have

1001
01:11:43.390 --> 01:11:49.910
Nathan McBride: there. It sounds reasonable. Always protect all of our sensitive data in the cloud sounds reasonable. Sounds good, very, Gartner.

1002
01:11:50.120 --> 01:11:54.559
Nathan McBride: but in practice that kind of statement will lead to complete inconsistency.

1003
01:11:54.910 --> 01:11:58.820
Nathan McBride: Some teams will interpret it to say, never put anything in the cloud

1004
01:11:59.340 --> 01:11:59.750
Mike Crispin: Yep.

1005
01:11:59.750 --> 01:12:02.770
Nathan McBride: Others will think that basic encryption is sufficient.

1006
01:12:02.970 --> 01:12:08.540
Nathan McBride: and some will have nothing to do with any new approach, because they weren't sure if they'd be violating the principle. To begin with.

1007
01:12:08.700 --> 01:12:10.130
Nathan McBride: what does that even mean?

1008
01:12:10.540 --> 01:12:11.960
Nathan McBride: Okay, so

1009
01:12:12.760 --> 01:12:24.179
Nathan McBride: this is what happened to me. I'm not gonna say number of companies ago. But this is a real life story. So when I sat down with my number one at that company, we redefined this, we said, Okay, it was a level one

1010
01:12:24.350 --> 01:12:33.690
Nathan McBride: data, it requires no special protection. It can go right into our data storage environment box level 2, it requires encryption in transit. And it had a particular category.

1011
01:12:33.690 --> 01:12:35.360
Nathan McBride: 33.

1012
01:12:35.360 --> 01:12:39.349
Nathan McBride: It requires encryption in transit and at rest. Level 4 requires

1013
01:12:39.640 --> 01:12:44.979
Nathan McBride: transit, rest, access. Login cannot leave approved environments without this person's approval.

1014
01:12:45.660 --> 01:12:52.869
Nathan McBride: So the result innovation increased. Because now everyone knew. Okay, cool. I know exactly what kind of data this is. I know where the boundaries are.

1015
01:12:53.090 --> 01:12:58.603
Nathan McBride: Problem totally solved like I get I get

1016
01:12:59.940 --> 01:13:05.350
Nathan McBride: well, let me back up. So there's this quote I used to have on. I used to have this printed out in a picture frame

1017
01:13:05.650 --> 01:13:08.940
Nathan McBride: I use like a comic sans or something. There's some ts.

1018
01:13:09.475 --> 01:13:10.010
Mike Crispin: Yeah.

1019
01:13:10.010 --> 01:13:12.209
Nathan McBride: Elliott, and the quote was.

1020
01:13:12.820 --> 01:13:19.650
Nathan McBride: when forced to work within a strict framework. The imagination is taxed to its utmost, and will produce its richest ideas.

1021
01:13:20.270 --> 01:13:32.180
Nathan McBride: Every time I've said this to any function that I've had people that have reported to me, I'm telling them I'm gonna give you a box within which to work. You have unlimited capacity inside that box, but you can't leave the walls of the box now. Innovate.

1022
01:13:33.470 --> 01:13:34.919
Nathan McBride: You wouldn't believe what people come up with.

1023
01:13:35.690 --> 01:13:37.209
Nathan McBride: they fucking kill it every time

1024
01:13:37.390 --> 01:13:40.510
Mike Crispin: That's I'm trying to

1025
01:13:40.510 --> 01:13:41.829
Nathan McBride: The Macgyver rule

1026
01:13:42.220 --> 01:13:42.790
Mike Crispin: Yeah.

1027
01:13:43.020 --> 01:13:45.650
Nathan McBride: Bubble gum and a paper clip.

1028
01:13:45.990 --> 01:13:46.989
Nathan McBride: Build a bomb.

1029
01:13:48.090 --> 01:13:49.259
Nathan McBride: They will do it.

1030
01:13:50.950 --> 01:13:54.219
Nathan McBride: By the way, neither Mike nor I advocate for bomb building

1031
01:13:54.960 --> 01:13:55.410
Mike Crispin: No.

1032
01:13:55.860 --> 01:13:56.650
Nathan McBride: Talk, desk.

1033
01:13:57.010 --> 01:13:57.819
Mike Crispin: We do not

1034
01:13:57.820 --> 01:13:59.610
Nathan McBride: But if you're stuck inside of a warehouse

1035
01:14:00.390 --> 01:14:11.540
Nathan McBride: and you have 30 seconds to escape before the gas is going to kill you. And there's people with guns outside. Then it is okay to build a bomb using duct, tape, bubble, gum and paper, clip

1036
01:14:11.850 --> 01:14:15.529
Mike Crispin: And if you can find a random kitchen timer timer from 1986

1037
01:14:15.530 --> 01:14:18.619
Nathan McBride: Random kitchen timer, or or even a digital watch

1038
01:14:19.220 --> 01:14:21.170
Mike Crispin: Yes, yes.

1039
01:14:22.690 --> 01:14:23.590
Nathan McBride: Always have.

1040
01:14:23.590 --> 01:14:24.600
Mike Crispin: Later, watch.

1041
01:14:24.600 --> 01:14:30.490
Nathan McBride: Always have a leatherman on your person at all times with a micro screwdriver

1042
01:14:31.780 --> 01:14:36.920
Mike Crispin: I like when he makes a gun out of the out of his jackknife, and he has.

1043
01:14:38.230 --> 01:14:40.230
Mike Crispin: I can hear the theme song right now

1044
01:14:40.230 --> 01:14:45.679
Nathan McBride: You were you were you were giving me shit about. Well, you weren't giving me shit about mythbusters, but

1045
01:14:46.140 --> 01:14:47.820
Mike Crispin: Not at all. No.

1046
01:14:48.340 --> 01:14:49.590
Nathan McBride: About mythbusters.

1047
01:14:49.760 --> 01:14:51.580
Nathan McBride: You ain't giving me shit. I do that

1048
01:14:52.730 --> 01:14:54.729
Mike Crispin: I was like in mythbusters. Yes.

1049
01:14:54.950 --> 01:14:56.129
Nathan McBride: I was explaining to you

1050
01:14:56.388 --> 01:14:59.489
Mike Crispin: I was nodding along. I was like, Yes, okay. I got you

1051
01:14:59.490 --> 01:15:06.530
Nathan McBride: Oh, I thought you were just humoring me, but I was explaining to Mike, because I'm old that back in the early 2 thousands the mythbusters came out.

1052
01:15:06.650 --> 01:15:09.619
Nathan McBride: We would watch it every week, as we did with TV back then.

1053
01:15:10.390 --> 01:15:13.330
Nathan McBride: and then the following morning we would all talk about in the It bullet

1054
01:15:14.140 --> 01:15:20.249
Nathan McBride: and one of the mythbusters episodes was Macgyverman's. Actually the 2 of these, and one of them was, Can you

1055
01:15:20.250 --> 01:15:20.760
Mike Crispin: That's

1056
01:15:20.760 --> 01:15:25.009
Nathan McBride: Put gunpowder into a door lock, and then like

1057
01:15:25.370 --> 01:15:27.310
Nathan McBride: hammer it over. Something like that. Of course

1058
01:15:27.310 --> 01:15:27.930
Mike Crispin: Yep.

1059
01:15:27.930 --> 01:15:31.960
Nathan McBride: It was the boss Yup, and what's his name? Mike?

1060
01:15:31.960 --> 01:15:33.340
Nathan McBride: Called Dean Wilson.

1061
01:15:33.810 --> 01:15:35.140
Mike Crispin: Richard Dean Anderson.

1062
01:15:35.140 --> 01:15:37.250
Nathan McBride: Anderson my whole.

1063
01:15:37.250 --> 01:15:41.649
Nathan McBride: I always wanted his hair, by the way, still, for this day I would have his. I would take his hair.

1064
01:15:43.500 --> 01:15:47.010
Nathan McBride: nothing to do with this episode. The whole point. I'm gonna bring this all the way back. By the way.

1065
01:15:47.150 --> 01:15:48.320
Nathan McBride: is that?

1066
01:15:48.700 --> 01:15:53.460
Nathan McBride: Well, Mike and I do not endorse bond building on this podcast and so

1067
01:15:53.460 --> 01:15:55.340
Nathan McBride: scenarios, we would, we would do it, which is

1068
01:15:55.500 --> 01:15:56.709
Mike Crispin: Clear, analog.

1069
01:15:56.710 --> 01:16:03.790
Nathan McBride: To our willingness to violate principal boundaries. But with limited exceptions, it's okay.

1070
01:16:03.790 --> 01:16:08.509
Nathan McBride: And we would always come back and review those inceptions at a future time. How about that?

1071
01:16:09.150 --> 01:16:13.259
Nathan McBride: And you're gonna document in your in your notebook while you created a bomb.

1072
01:16:13.790 --> 01:16:18.840
Nathan McBride: Oh, man, we should stop right now. My God!

1073
01:16:18.840 --> 01:16:23.649
Mike Crispin: Yeah. Well, you said, write it down. You gotta write your what's what did you say? Compensated controls

1074
01:16:23.650 --> 01:16:24.469
Nathan McBride: Same controls.

1075
01:16:24.930 --> 01:16:26.489
Mike Crispin: This is why I created a bar

1076
01:16:26.490 --> 01:16:33.329
Nathan McBride: So Macgyver went through his 4 choices was nothing which obviously was meant. Probably

1077
01:16:33.330 --> 01:16:35.219
Mike Crispin: Yeah, that could have been deaf. He could have died if

1078
01:16:35.220 --> 01:16:39.980
Nathan McBride: Well, no one ever get hit by a bullet on a Macgyver but in the over the 18.

1079
01:16:40.260 --> 01:16:43.239
Nathan McBride: But anyway, that was option A option B was

1080
01:16:43.430 --> 01:16:47.480
Nathan McBride: create a bomb, which was the the best option. Yeah, option C was

1081
01:16:47.480 --> 01:16:48.570
Mike Crispin: Obviously

1082
01:16:48.570 --> 01:16:50.880
Nathan McBride: Option C was explore other options

1083
01:16:50.880 --> 01:16:51.470
Mike Crispin: Yep.

1084
01:16:51.820 --> 01:16:56.910
Nathan McBride: Besides bomb, which, you know, given his limited assets, was probably not going to work.

1085
01:16:57.020 --> 01:17:02.715
Nathan McBride: And then option d was work about how to do nothing better. Maybe you could have like

1086
01:17:03.210 --> 01:17:07.800
Mike Crispin: Yeah, sit down with a handkerchief and put it over your nose and just breathe in the gas

1087
01:17:07.800 --> 01:17:13.039
Nathan McBride: Or maybe he could have, like opened the door to go outside, and and given up

1088
01:17:13.900 --> 01:17:18.569
Mike Crispin: Oh, he can't get out! He's trapped! He's got this poisonous gas coming through the vents

1089
01:17:18.570 --> 01:17:22.229
Nathan McBride: Oh, the thing is, if he went out the front door, which was open he would have gotten shot.

1090
01:17:22.860 --> 01:17:25.529
Nathan McBride: but if he held up a white flag. He could have surrendered

1091
01:17:26.390 --> 01:17:31.629
Mike Crispin: I don't know. I don't. I think they wanted to take Macgyver out in that episode. I don't think he would have had enough

1092
01:17:32.850 --> 01:17:34.010
Nathan McBride: Because of his hair.

1093
01:17:34.800 --> 01:17:38.340
Mike Crispin: Molly was trying to rescue. Someone had been captured and

1094
01:17:38.340 --> 01:17:41.269
Nathan McBride: Yes, he was always rescuing somebody.

1095
01:17:41.270 --> 01:17:46.580
Nathan McBride: Of course it was a very, very attractive lady, and you know, yeah.

1096
01:17:46.960 --> 01:17:50.029
Mike Crispin: And Macgyver was there, and

1097
01:17:50.470 --> 01:17:53.490
Nathan McBride: Do you think, Mcgyver, if he was on like a governance committee?

1098
01:17:54.440 --> 01:18:03.390
Nathan McBride: Where do you think he would fall like if he, every single time he had to produce a compensating control for a solution. You think, he would say, make sure there are no

1099
01:18:03.960 --> 01:18:10.649
Nathan McBride: ladies in the room with a bomb, because every time that happens to me I have to get out

1100
01:18:11.420 --> 01:18:14.160
Nathan McBride: using my bubble gum

1101
01:18:15.140 --> 01:18:18.930
Mike Crispin: A strange feeling that Macgyver was extremely reactive

1102
01:18:19.600 --> 01:18:20.950
Nathan McBride: You don't think he was planning ahead

1103
01:18:21.290 --> 01:18:27.540
Mike Crispin: Well, I think all he had was a jackknife on him, so he was always reacting to the environment around him and making the most of it right?

1104
01:18:27.840 --> 01:18:31.249
Mike Crispin: So he never. He never had a plan, because he never, never had a plan

1105
01:18:31.250 --> 01:18:41.650
Nathan McBride: Do you think there's something in that, though, that gonna be applied to it? Where, if you take the Macgyver approaches, you walk into a room, and you're able to calculate 10 different ways to take out the enemy in 1 min.

1106
01:18:42.360 --> 01:18:45.030
Mike Crispin: And you can apply that to every it situation.

1107
01:18:45.650 --> 01:18:50.519
Mike Crispin: Just walk in and use the tools at your disposal, and if there aren't any, then

1108
01:18:51.410 --> 01:18:53.309
Nathan McBride: Until the enemy has been neutralized

1109
01:18:53.310 --> 01:18:54.269
Mike Crispin: Go get lunch.

1110
01:18:55.020 --> 01:18:57.569
Nathan McBride: I'm gonna we're gonna do an episode about this

1111
01:18:57.830 --> 01:18:58.480
Mike Crispin: Macgyver.

1112
01:18:58.480 --> 01:18:58.850
Nathan McBride: Let me go!

1113
01:18:58.850 --> 01:19:00.150
Mike Crispin: Oh, resourcefulness!

1114
01:19:00.150 --> 01:19:00.990
Nathan McBride: Your fullness.

1115
01:19:00.990 --> 01:19:03.730
Mike Crispin: Innovation, resilience.

1116
01:19:04.047 --> 01:19:05.950
Nathan McBride: Oh, my God, Mike, keep going

1117
01:19:06.270 --> 01:19:08.600
Mike Crispin: Let's get the T-shirt ready

1118
01:19:08.600 --> 01:19:09.390
Nathan McBride: This.

1119
01:19:09.590 --> 01:19:10.280
Mike Crispin: Resilience.

1120
01:19:10.280 --> 01:19:11.420
Nathan McBride: Resilience.

1121
01:19:11.420 --> 01:19:12.630
Mike Crispin: And what else we have

1122
01:19:12.630 --> 01:19:15.040
Nathan McBride: The Mcgow by the principal

1123
01:19:15.140 --> 01:19:21.279
Mike Crispin: The Macgyver principal react to your environment.

1124
01:19:22.370 --> 01:19:23.910
Mike Crispin: That sounds awful

1125
01:19:23.910 --> 01:19:28.450
Nathan McBride: React to the pressures of your environment and always

1126
01:19:28.450 --> 01:19:28.980
Mike Crispin: Yeah.

1127
01:19:28.980 --> 01:19:30.180
Nathan McBride: Have a jackknife.

1128
01:19:30.630 --> 01:19:32.176
Mike Crispin: Always have a jackknife.

1129
01:19:33.260 --> 01:19:34.100
Nathan McBride: And Bulgar.

1130
01:19:35.740 --> 01:19:37.560
Mike Crispin: Have a T-shirt that has the word

1131
01:19:37.680 --> 01:19:42.039
Mike Crispin: proactive on it, and just have a big X through it, and then on the bottom, it says

1132
01:19:42.760 --> 01:19:45.340
Nathan McBride: And be reactive and amazing. Hair

1133
01:19:46.990 --> 01:19:51.120
Mike Crispin: Isn't that always? They say not to be is, don't be reactive, be proactive.

1134
01:19:52.080 --> 01:19:53.220
Nathan McBride: Yeah, reactive sucks.

1135
01:19:53.540 --> 01:19:54.110
Nathan McBride: Yeah.

1136
01:19:55.320 --> 01:19:59.080
Nathan McBride: Don't think Macgyver is reactive as you think. I think he sees the situation

1137
01:19:59.690 --> 01:20:01.440
Mike Crispin: He surveys the situation.

1138
01:20:01.440 --> 01:20:13.390
Nathan McBride: Yeah, like Napoleon used to use this term called the coup day, which was being able to stand on the mountaintop and view the whole battlefield, and think of every single possible simulation. I could go on right. That siege mentality.

1139
01:20:13.780 --> 01:20:14.500
Mike Crispin: Yeah.

1140
01:20:14.690 --> 01:20:15.780
Nathan McBride: Like Harvard does. Okay?

1141
01:20:15.780 --> 01:20:22.289
Mike Crispin: I think, in in fairness. Most of what Macgyver did was unrealistic. So it was fantasy

1142
01:20:22.800 --> 01:20:24.389
Nathan McBride: What do you think talking about like

1143
01:20:24.750 --> 01:20:28.680
Mike Crispin: So if you get trapped in a room you can't get out with just a jackknife and some bubblegum

1144
01:20:28.680 --> 01:20:34.570
Nathan McBride: You know, like mythbusters, only discounted one myth, and they ranked it as possibly plausible.

1145
01:20:35.380 --> 01:20:41.100
Nathan McBride: which actually is redundant because it's just plausible. You don't need possibly plausible

1146
01:20:41.100 --> 01:20:49.549
Mike Crispin: The assumption is that these elements and and resources are available to you in the room. There's always something that showed up

1147
01:20:49.740 --> 01:20:50.390
Mike Crispin: like

1148
01:20:50.390 --> 01:20:52.519
Nathan McBride: Macgyver was in a room that had nothing in it

1149
01:20:53.580 --> 01:20:57.739
Mike Crispin: Well, he might peel off a floor tile or something, and light it on fire.

1150
01:20:57.740 --> 01:21:01.760
Nathan McBride: He would use his belt buckle. I I was trying to feed you. The answer that he uses

1151
01:21:01.760 --> 01:21:05.910
Mike Crispin: So that's the status is sort of proactive. Approach is I'm gonna make sure of a belt buffer like a

1152
01:21:05.910 --> 01:21:10.750
Nathan McBride: You would always have a belt buckle that could be used for 10 different things.

1153
01:21:10.750 --> 01:21:11.369
Mike Crispin: Got it.

1154
01:21:12.070 --> 01:21:14.130
Mike Crispin: He's always chewing bubble. Gum

1155
01:21:14.130 --> 01:21:15.290
Nathan McBride: Always your mobile, dumb.

1156
01:21:16.230 --> 01:21:17.630
Mike Crispin: He's got a

1157
01:21:18.310 --> 01:21:24.499
Nathan McBride: Wouldn't be surprised if he was hiding like a file in his hair, because it was Secretary

1158
01:21:24.710 --> 01:21:27.050
Mike Crispin: I'm gonna ask chat, gpt if

1159
01:21:27.050 --> 01:21:35.750
Nathan McBride: Alright you set up. I'm gonna close up this this discussion. So the key insight here, everybody it leaders especially, is that boundaries aren't the same as restrictions.

1160
01:21:36.710 --> 01:21:44.670
Nathan McBride: Boundaries create clarity where decisions need extra scrutiny. Non-blanket prohibitions, prohibitions suck even the word sucks.

1161
01:21:44.990 --> 01:21:47.529
Nathan McBride: They're more like the lines on a highway than the walls of a prison.

1162
01:21:47.990 --> 01:21:52.280
Nathan McBride: I come to believe that one of the most valuable things in it can provide is clarity.

1163
01:21:52.450 --> 01:21:59.439
Nathan McBride: A set of well-defined boundaries, mostly based on your own principles, but also based on the principles and the outcomes of the company

1164
01:21:59.910 --> 01:22:07.779
Nathan McBride: that help everyone in the organization make better, more consistent decisions without constant escalation or reinvession.

1165
01:22:08.820 --> 01:22:10.570
Nathan McBride: and perhaps the most profound benefit

1166
01:22:10.940 --> 01:22:13.479
Nathan McBride: is that it changes how the business perceives it.

1167
01:22:13.710 --> 01:22:15.770
Nathan McBride: Instead of being the department of No.

1168
01:22:15.970 --> 01:22:18.690
Nathan McBride: You become the department of very clear guidelines.

1169
01:22:19.600 --> 01:22:26.820
Nathan McBride: You're no longer throwing up arbitrary roadblocks. Oh, you can't do that, because, because it's Tuesday.

1170
01:22:27.460 --> 01:22:33.279
Nathan McBride: No, you're you're providing a framework that helps everyone navigate complexity more effectively.

1171
01:22:35.220 --> 01:22:36.400
Nathan McBride: So

1172
01:22:36.530 --> 01:22:37.160
Mike Crispin: Yes.

1173
01:22:37.160 --> 01:22:37.990
Nathan McBride: That

1174
01:22:38.270 --> 01:22:43.959
Nathan McBride: gets us through principles and boundaries. And I did have an archetype. We haven't done an archetype in many episodes. By the way.

1175
01:22:44.880 --> 01:22:47.050
Nathan McBride: You wanna tackle today's archetype? Or do you wanna

1176
01:22:47.550 --> 01:22:49.329
Mike Crispin: Well, I was gonna reach you what they said

1177
01:22:49.330 --> 01:22:52.830
Nathan McBride: Oh, Whoa! Whoa! Sorry! Sorry! What? So you got the result. You get the result that fast

1178
01:22:52.830 --> 01:22:54.310
Mike Crispin: Yeah, it's

1179
01:22:54.310 --> 01:22:55.560
Nathan McBride: Dbt tool is amazing.

1180
01:22:55.560 --> 01:22:58.320
Mike Crispin: It's unbelievable, unbelievable technology. What an

1181
01:22:58.320 --> 01:23:00.309
Nathan McBride: That was like that was like a minute

1182
01:23:00.310 --> 01:23:05.160
Mike Crispin: This is, this is an improved, an important question, too, and AI agrees with you.

1183
01:23:05.550 --> 01:23:14.669
Mike Crispin: Macgyver would definitely be considered proactive, though he often operates in reactive situations. Here's the nuance.

1184
01:23:15.120 --> 01:23:31.040
Mike Crispin: proactive mindsets Macgyver has, he constantly observes, his environment, anticipates what could go wrong and thinks several steps ahead. He doesn't just wait for things to happen. He prepares mentally and creatively, so that when something does happen he's ready to act fast.

1185
01:23:31.160 --> 01:23:44.840
Mike Crispin: and then his reactive scenarios most of the time he thrusts into urgent, unpredictable crises, like bombs, traps, or kidnappings. But even in these high pressure situations he doesn't panic. He quickly evaluates the situation

1186
01:23:45.080 --> 01:23:50.290
Mike Crispin: uses available resources and comes up with clever and often unconventional solutions.

1187
01:23:50.430 --> 01:23:58.130
Mike Crispin: So all his actions appear reactive. Responding to these immediate problems, his mindset and decision making style are highly proactive.

1188
01:23:58.390 --> 01:24:02.239
Mike Crispin: He always prepared to think on his feet, which is kind of his superpower

1189
01:24:02.910 --> 01:24:09.689
Nathan McBride: Okay, can you copy that? Send it to me because I want to put in the next episode? And also that sounds like a 2 by 2 square right there.

1190
01:24:09.790 --> 01:24:11.330
Nathan McBride: So in the bottom, left

1191
01:24:11.700 --> 01:24:12.150
Mike Crispin: Yep.

1192
01:24:12.150 --> 01:24:18.269
Nathan McBride: Of the 2 by 2 square. You have low, reactive, low, proactive, and the top

1193
01:24:18.270 --> 01:24:26.709
Nathan McBride: right corner. You have Macgyver top left, low, proactive, high reactive and bottom right low, proactive, low, reactive

1194
01:24:27.715 --> 01:24:28.720
Mike Crispin: Yep.

1195
01:24:29.370 --> 01:24:33.380
Nathan McBride: We're gonna map out everybody we know, and then tell everybody what we think about them. Next week

1196
01:24:35.120 --> 01:24:35.760
Mike Crispin: Sounds good

1197
01:24:36.280 --> 01:24:38.730
Nathan McBride: No, no, we won't do that. That would be. That would be bad.

1198
01:24:39.360 --> 01:24:39.990
Mike Crispin: Okay.

1199
01:24:41.150 --> 01:24:42.799
Nathan McBride: But I will. We already have.

1200
01:24:42.800 --> 01:24:44.340
Nathan McBride: Okay, we're gonna just discuss.

1201
01:24:44.500 --> 01:24:50.420
Nathan McBride: Maybe I'll push off. Episode 8 1 more week and we'll discuss the Macgyver principle next week, or at least we'll do a wart about it.

1202
01:24:51.360 --> 01:24:53.889
Mike Crispin: Okay. I'm gonna argue with chat. Gpt here

1203
01:24:54.250 --> 01:24:57.600
Nathan McBride: Okay, do you want me to cover the principal pragmacist while we wrap up here

1204
01:24:57.600 --> 01:24:59.019
Mike Crispin: Oh, let's go! Let's go!

1205
01:24:59.020 --> 01:25:13.239
Nathan McBride: Number 3. So we we've had a couple of archetypes in the show that we've discussed, that are people that you know, that we know these are it leaders, and we give them these clever little nicknames. And this one is Peter, the principal pragmatist. So, Peter.

1206
01:25:14.980 --> 01:25:15.530
Nathan McBride: yeah.

1207
01:25:15.780 --> 01:25:21.970
Nathan McBride: Peter, you know you're dealing with Peter, the principal pragmatist. When Peter has a laminated decision framework on his desk.

1208
01:25:22.560 --> 01:25:23.690
Mike Crispin: Oh, great!

1209
01:25:23.690 --> 01:25:26.540
Nathan McBride: Here can quote company principles verbatim.

1210
01:25:27.110 --> 01:25:30.379
Nathan McBride: Peter says yes, but more than no.

1211
01:25:30.910 --> 01:25:35.079
Nathan McBride: Peter constantly updates his principles based on new data.

1212
01:25:35.280 --> 01:25:39.209
Nathan McBride: and Peter's team knows exactly where the guardrails are.

1213
01:25:39.950 --> 01:25:41.539
Nathan McBride: Peter's favorite phrases

1214
01:25:42.220 --> 01:25:43.269
Mike Crispin: Let me check our

1215
01:25:43.270 --> 01:25:45.610
Nathan McBride: Framework for this particular situation.

1216
01:25:46.460 --> 01:25:49.260
Nathan McBride: That's an interesting exception case you've thought of.

1217
01:25:49.480 --> 01:25:52.700
Nathan McBride: We can do that. But we need to document the exception.

1218
01:25:53.430 --> 01:25:56.029
Nathan McBride: How does this align with our established boundaries?

1219
01:25:56.170 --> 01:25:59.020
Nathan McBride: And let's revisit this in 90 days.

1220
01:25:59.510 --> 01:26:03.810
Nathan McBride: How does our fearless it, leader leverage Peter's approach?

1221
01:26:04.180 --> 01:26:05.050
Nathan McBride: Well.

1222
01:26:05.430 --> 01:26:11.840
Nathan McBride: our fearless it leader who has appeared the principal pragmatist, or is one. Make sure they document boundaries clearly

1223
01:26:12.910 --> 01:26:17.950
Nathan McBride: implement that decision framework we talked about, establish an obsession process.

1224
01:26:18.900 --> 01:26:24.190
Nathan McBride: build a culture of principle decisions which is, which is to say, lead by example.

1225
01:26:24.320 --> 01:26:41.780
Nathan McBride: and then, lastly, communicate boundaries as enablers, not boundaries. So maybe something is a boundary. You can't go past this line. That's no fun. What you say is, here's the line that we can get to today. We would love to go past this. We need your help to do so.

1226
01:26:43.130 --> 01:26:47.590
Nathan McBride: Peter knows without clear boundaries. Chaos wins.

1227
01:26:48.810 --> 01:26:49.400
Nathan McBride: But Peter

1228
01:26:49.400 --> 01:26:50.140
Mike Crispin: I'll do that

1229
01:26:50.380 --> 01:26:55.550
Nathan McBride: Peter all snows the boundaries that don't bend will eventually break.

1230
01:26:55.910 --> 01:27:04.609
Nathan McBride: Peter's art is in knowing when to hold firm and when to make a principled exception, and that's the calculus separates Peter

1231
01:27:04.910 --> 01:27:05.900
Nathan McBride: from the rest.

1232
01:27:06.100 --> 01:27:08.730
Nathan McBride: I want to remind everybody that if you like our show.

1233
01:27:10.130 --> 01:27:14.850
Nathan McBride: please give us all the stars on whatever platform you use.

1234
01:27:15.740 --> 01:27:21.220
Nathan McBride: and our show description. And oh, by the way, I don't think substack has stars. So if you listen to us on substack

1235
01:27:21.220 --> 01:27:21.870
Mike Crispin: Like.

1236
01:27:22.430 --> 01:27:23.479
Nathan McBride: I like it

1237
01:27:23.480 --> 01:27:28.999
Nathan McBride: like us, which is cool, but also go and go to any one of the sources, and just like us there, too.

1238
01:27:29.910 --> 01:27:32.680
Nathan McBride: in our show description. We have the links to buy things

1239
01:27:33.810 --> 01:27:36.840
Nathan McBride: donate to Wikimedia, also the aclu

1240
01:27:37.799 --> 01:27:42.859
Nathan McBride: buy us a beer if you want to give us a couple extra bucks. We'll take the Beers. Don't be a dick

1241
01:27:43.750 --> 01:27:52.779
Nathan McBride: especially. Don't be a dick to their hardworking it. Folks in your company. They just got absolutely waxed on their investment portfolios by the tariffs, so be extra cool to them.

1242
01:27:53.540 --> 01:27:55.740
Nathan McBride: Be cool that everybody will get paid back in spades.

1243
01:27:55.860 --> 01:27:58.689
Nathan McBride: Be nice to animals. Be nice to old people.

1244
01:27:59.430 --> 01:28:01.600
Nathan McBride: and anything you want to add, Mike

1245
01:28:03.290 --> 01:28:09.490
Mike Crispin: I have nothing to add other than thanks for listening again to our wonderful podcast. Here from the

1246
01:28:10.300 --> 01:28:12.590
Mike Crispin: sports. But where the hell are we again

1247
01:28:12.590 --> 01:28:13.549
Nathan McBride: Our ads.

1248
01:28:13.550 --> 01:28:14.010
Mike Crispin: The Sport

1249
01:28:14.010 --> 01:28:16.669
Nathan McBride: And I want to call it out because our waitress was fantastic.

1250
01:28:16.670 --> 01:28:18.900
Mike Crispin: So just sporting club

1251
01:28:18.900 --> 01:28:21.740
Nathan McBride: Sporting Club. There's so many Tvs

1252
01:28:22.040 --> 01:28:24.499
Nathan McBride: I know there's a thousand Tvs this morning.

1253
01:28:24.500 --> 01:28:25.670
Nathan McBride: Walkers, too.

1254
01:28:25.670 --> 01:28:27.419
Nathan McBride: Oh, it says it right up there. By the way on the wall

1255
01:28:27.530 --> 01:28:29.179
Mike Crispin: Oh, yeah, there it is.

1256
01:28:29.180 --> 01:28:35.019
Nathan McBride: Sporting Club in lovely downtown Boston, in the seaport district next to the Omni Ritz Hotel.

1257
01:28:35.020 --> 01:28:39.279
Mike Crispin: It's awesome. They got lockers up on the wall, too. Do you see the lockers

1258
01:28:39.280 --> 01:28:42.610
Nathan McBride: Yeah, that's where you just put your sweaty gym clothes while you're having dinner

1259
01:28:42.790 --> 01:28:44.990
Mike Crispin: Oh, okay. I like that nice touch.

1260
01:28:45.180 --> 01:28:52.099
Nathan McBride: Yeah, you just walk in like that from the gym. You're all like sweating and dripping everywhere. You just hand the barge into your bag of clothes. They put it in the lock

1261
01:28:52.100 --> 01:28:55.309
Mike Crispin: They throw, they throw it up there next to the bottle of wine.

1262
01:28:55.310 --> 01:28:57.079
Nathan McBride: That's why it smells so good in here

1263
01:28:57.283 --> 01:28:58.909
Mike Crispin: It does smell kind of musty in there

1264
01:28:58.910 --> 01:29:03.230
Nathan McBride: Effervescent. Here it smells like Peter. No, it smells like Macgyver.

1265
01:29:03.410 --> 01:29:05.840
Nathan McBride: it does smell like Macgyver in here.

1266
01:29:05.840 --> 01:29:11.419
Nathan McBride: Wonder what Mcgyver like at the end of the day. It was 10 o'clock at night, right

1267
01:29:11.420 --> 01:29:14.180
Mike Crispin: Smells like Jakar Cologne.

1268
01:29:15.510 --> 01:29:15.960
Mike Crispin: Yeah, I

1269
01:29:15.960 --> 01:29:18.639
Nathan McBride: That's what he smells like. I think Macgyver smells like that.

1270
01:29:18.640 --> 01:29:21.440
Nathan McBride: Yeah. But but do you think like, like, like, we go home.

1271
01:29:21.700 --> 01:29:23.820
Nathan McBride: it's like 9, 30 at night, 10 at night.

1272
01:29:23.820 --> 01:29:24.330
Mike Crispin: Yeah.

1273
01:29:24.330 --> 01:29:31.179
Nathan McBride: We have a we have a drink. We reflect on our day, pitch up on some emails. Even Macgyver came home at 10 o'clock at night.

1274
01:29:32.080 --> 01:29:35.069
Nathan McBride: and just like, Oh, honey, what a day!

1275
01:29:35.420 --> 01:29:38.879
Nathan McBride: Fucking blew my way out of an airport hangar

1276
01:29:39.590 --> 01:29:42.250
Nathan McBride: avoided a tank full of Nazis.

1277
01:29:42.850 --> 01:29:45.939
Nathan McBride: and I got so many emails today.

1278
01:29:46.290 --> 01:29:47.770
Nathan McBride: Oh, you got kids about all this shit

1279
01:29:47.950 --> 01:29:50.659
Mike Crispin: I bet he gets home he sits down.

1280
01:29:50.940 --> 01:29:53.659
Mike Crispin: He makes a couple English muffins and has a whiskey.

1281
01:29:55.460 --> 01:29:56.339
Mike Crispin: That's what I think he does.

1282
01:29:58.240 --> 01:30:03.709
Mike Crispin: He just cuts the English muffins up, and he's like this. I really feel like English muffins right now.

1283
01:30:03.710 --> 01:30:04.870
Nathan McBride: No Mac, and cheese, or ramen

1284
01:30:05.110 --> 01:30:11.989
Mike Crispin: No just English muffins, Macgyver. He's like I've used this jackknife. I can have one more thing. I'll use the jackknife to cut up English muffin.

1285
01:30:12.260 --> 01:30:14.010
Mike Crispin: Spread a little butter on it.

1286
01:30:14.310 --> 01:30:18.400
Mike Crispin: a few ropes over the top, maybe, and then he has some whiskey, and he's he's good

1287
01:30:18.400 --> 01:30:19.479
Nathan McBride: Isn't that insane?

1288
01:30:23.800 --> 01:30:25.389
Nathan McBride: It's like guys.

1289
01:30:25.390 --> 01:30:28.600
Nathan McBride: What's rope is no longer our sponsor.

1290
01:30:28.600 --> 01:30:30.230
Mike Crispin: I gotta throw it in there.

1291
01:30:30.600 --> 01:30:41.670
Nathan McBride: So do you think that Macgyver does not use a toaster, that he takes a 9 volt. Battery with 2 electrodes, and attaches one to each side of the English muffin to cook it

1292
01:30:41.840 --> 01:30:46.809
Mike Crispin: I think he puts a he puts the bat, rest the batteries on top of the English.

1293
01:30:47.090 --> 01:30:51.870
Mike Crispin: and he kind of pseudo reverse, fries them with a little bit of butter.

1294
01:30:51.870 --> 01:30:54.679
Nathan McBride: So from the bubble gum wrapper to heat

1295
01:30:55.070 --> 01:30:58.690
Nathan McBride: the muffin and the battery anodes

1296
01:31:00.580 --> 01:31:03.537
Mike Crispin: He might even eat the wrapper afterwards.

1297
01:31:04.810 --> 01:31:08.929
Mike Crispin: because he might need it later on, and he can just poop it out and use it later.

1298
01:31:09.100 --> 01:31:10.839
Nathan McBride: The guy who doesn't poop. By the way.

1299
01:31:11.300 --> 01:31:12.530
Mike Crispin: You don't think so.

1300
01:31:12.530 --> 01:31:18.750
Nathan McBride: No, his body reuses all proteins and foods over and over again to keep him going. He never has to eat

1301
01:31:19.070 --> 01:31:21.170
Mike Crispin: See, that's proactive. That's proactive.

1302
01:31:21.170 --> 01:31:21.769
Nathan McBride: That's that's a

1303
01:31:21.770 --> 01:31:23.180
Mike Crispin: Proactive Approach.

1304
01:31:23.470 --> 01:31:26.300
Nathan McBride: Your body into a food recycling machine

1305
01:31:26.300 --> 01:31:28.420
Nathan McBride: fusion like in back to the future, too.

1306
01:31:28.420 --> 01:31:29.150
Nathan McBride: Exactly.

1307
01:31:29.360 --> 01:31:37.960
Nathan McBride: Mcgover doesn't need food or a drink. He merely does it to to blend in with other human beings. I don't think he's weird.

1308
01:31:38.470 --> 01:31:39.360
Nathan McBride: He doesn't need anything

1309
01:31:39.360 --> 01:31:41.580
Mike Crispin: It isn't anything he's got. It all figured out

1310
01:31:41.580 --> 01:31:42.999
Nathan McBride: But he always has. Gum!

1311
01:31:43.210 --> 01:31:46.840
Nathan McBride: You ever wonder why guys have come all the time?

1312
01:31:46.840 --> 01:31:48.649
Nathan McBride: You know how. I don't know how much I've come

1313
01:31:49.010 --> 01:31:51.120
Mike Crispin: I don't do. You always have gum

1314
01:31:51.120 --> 01:31:53.070
Nathan McBride: I don't, I mean come never!

1315
01:31:53.070 --> 01:31:53.740
Mike Crispin: Flavor, quickly.

1316
01:31:53.740 --> 01:31:58.100
Nathan McBride: I've always had gum just makes it. I'm just gonna say, like, I'm just gonna say it.

1317
01:31:58.100 --> 01:32:01.730
Nathan McBride: That's part of the proactive approach or something else.

1318
01:32:03.690 --> 01:32:06.219
Nathan McBride: But I think maybe the key to it. Leadership, Mike.

1319
01:32:06.770 --> 01:32:08.699
Nathan McBride: I'm just gonna go out on a limb and say, this

1320
01:32:09.440 --> 01:32:11.789
Nathan McBride: is a have a have a good pocket knife.

1321
01:32:12.660 --> 01:32:13.440
Mike Crispin: Yes.

1322
01:32:13.750 --> 01:32:25.980
Nathan McBride: Be. Have gum in your pocket with a foil wrapper, and see be proactive, but react

1323
01:32:28.470 --> 01:32:30.979
Mike Crispin: Yeah. Be proactive. Don't be reactive.

1324
01:32:31.380 --> 01:32:32.620
Nathan McBride: But no, be reactive but for

1325
01:32:32.620 --> 01:32:33.830
Mike Crispin: Be reactivated.

1326
01:32:34.380 --> 01:32:35.100
Nathan McBride: Okay.

1327
01:32:35.330 --> 01:32:37.679
Mike Crispin: I'm arguing with Chat Gpt right now.

1328
01:32:37.990 --> 01:32:44.670
Mike Crispin: Alright, I feel like Macgyver is reactive to the situation because he never knows what resources will be available

1329
01:32:45.810 --> 01:32:47.990
Nathan McBride: He always keeps key resources on his person.

1330
01:32:49.110 --> 01:32:50.080
Mike Crispin: Well, it.

1331
01:32:50.180 --> 01:32:58.189
Mike Crispin: Macgyver is often reactive in the moment, but he walks into situations where he has no idea what tools, materials, and dangers he'll be facing.

1332
01:32:58.780 --> 01:33:10.429
Mike Crispin: He's not walking around with a master plan or a suitcase full of gadgets. He has to respond to whatever's thrown at him, usually with what's in his pockets and what's lying around. So in that sense he's reactive by necessity.

1333
01:33:10.800 --> 01:33:29.079
Mike Crispin: His genius is how quickly he, creative, how creatively he responds to chaos, but he doesn't control the circumstances, but he does control how he navigates them. Maybe it's fair to say he's reactive in method, but proactive in mindset, like. He trains himself to be ready for anything, even though he can't plan for everything

1334
01:33:29.640 --> 01:33:30.360
Nathan McBride: But that's

1335
01:33:30.360 --> 01:33:31.529
Mike Crispin: Well, that makes sense.

1336
01:33:31.530 --> 01:33:48.420
Nathan McBride: I'm gonna argue that if he knows that there's a high opportunity for him to have to use his environment every time, wouldn't he want to increase his odds by perhaps, say, wearing a couple of knives, or some like a multi tool, or perhaps carrying around a small stick of C 4 dynamite in his desk.

1337
01:33:48.980 --> 01:33:50.880
Nathan McBride: something something to be

1338
01:33:50.880 --> 01:33:56.899
Mike Crispin: I feel like he feels like he's proactive just by having the pocket knife like that's all he needs.

1339
01:33:56.900 --> 01:34:00.510
Nathan McBride: He feels like. That's the extent of the tools he needs to get from any situation

1340
01:34:01.020 --> 01:34:05.379
Mike Crispin: I feel like that's for for what 12 seasons that's what he was able to do. He

1341
01:34:05.380 --> 01:34:11.089
Nathan McBride: We need. We need to define what is what is in that, that little knife for it. Leaders

1342
01:34:12.080 --> 01:34:13.303
Mike Crispin: I would say it's

1343
01:34:17.490 --> 01:34:18.280
Mike Crispin: sorry.

1344
01:34:19.520 --> 01:34:21.849
Mike Crispin: It's just an AI bot, that's all you need

1345
01:34:28.490 --> 01:34:29.959
Nathan McBride: Good.

1346
01:34:29.960 --> 01:34:32.689
Mike Crispin: You did apocalypto right. That's his name right

1347
01:34:32.690 --> 01:34:33.630
Nathan McBride: Apollipto, yeah.

1348
01:34:33.630 --> 01:34:37.350
Mike Crispin: Apocalypto. That's it, that's all you need. That's your jackknife.

1349
01:34:37.350 --> 01:34:39.619
Nathan McBride: Okay. Well, you heard it here. Oh, folks.

1350
01:34:39.620 --> 01:34:48.570
Mike Crispin: Where? Where would you place yourself? Do you thrive more when you can prepare, or when you have to improvise under pressure? Now it's asking me. It's getting personal what I think, what

1351
01:34:50.500 --> 01:34:51.099
Nathan McBride: Are you having another one

1352
01:34:52.037 --> 01:34:54.850
Mike Crispin: I'm slowly digesting.

1353
01:34:56.310 --> 01:34:58.170
Nathan McBride: Well, then, I will have

1354
01:34:59.362 --> 01:35:00.300
Mike Crispin: Yeah, I'm good.

1355
01:35:02.520 --> 01:35:03.869
Mike Crispin: I'm trying to behave

1356
01:35:04.760 --> 01:35:05.570
Nathan McBride: Yes.

1357
01:35:10.450 --> 01:35:11.380
Mike Crispin: Okay.

1358
01:35:12.250 --> 01:35:14.599
Nathan McBride: Alright, yeah, why don't we do that? And we'll

1359
01:35:14.600 --> 01:35:15.140
Mike Crispin: Yeah, yeah.

1360
01:35:15.140 --> 01:35:15.830
Nathan McBride: Thank you.

1361
01:35:16.520 --> 01:35:17.829
Nathan McBride: No, I'll I'll just

1362
01:35:17.830 --> 01:35:18.470
Mike Crispin: Yes.

1363
01:35:19.690 --> 01:35:24.899
Nathan McBride: Oh, darn great! Thank you. Alright! Perfect.

1364
01:35:24.900 --> 01:35:25.730
Mike Crispin: Like it

1365
01:35:25.730 --> 01:35:26.119
Nathan McBride: Thank you.

1366
01:35:26.120 --> 01:35:26.930
Mike Crispin: Thank you.

1367
01:35:28.790 --> 01:35:29.669
Nathan McBride: All right, Mike.

1368
01:35:29.670 --> 01:35:31.199
Mike Crispin: Yeah, this is great. I love to look

1369
01:35:31.200 --> 01:35:36.139
Nathan McBride: So basically, the whole episode we could have just said, Get an AI bot

1370
01:35:36.390 --> 01:35:38.670
Nathan McBride: and been done with it. Is that what you're saying?

1371
01:35:38.850 --> 01:35:40.139
Nathan McBride: We didn't need to have this episode

1372
01:35:40.140 --> 01:35:44.860
Mike Crispin: No, you you said like, what's your little jackknife like? You need an assistant. I feel like a little

1373
01:35:45.220 --> 01:35:49.680
Mike Crispin: little calculus of it. Assistance

1374
01:35:50.380 --> 01:35:52.310
Nathan McBride: Okay. Thank you.

1375
01:35:52.810 --> 01:35:55.920
Mike Crispin: That could be the the jackknife that you bring along with you

1376
01:35:56.860 --> 01:36:00.269
Nathan McBride: Who I got you pay the last one at Campo's girl, did I?

1377
01:36:00.560 --> 01:36:01.580
Nathan McBride: I think we paid for it

1378
01:36:02.380 --> 01:36:04.619
Mike Crispin: Did I? I don't know what's going on

1379
01:36:04.620 --> 01:36:06.440
Nathan McBride: Yeah. Alright. Okay. Everybody.

1380
01:36:06.490 --> 01:36:07.590
Mike Crispin: Peace! Out!

1381
01:36:07.900 --> 01:36:12.120
Nathan McBride: So be good to each other. It's gonna get weird in summer.

1382
01:36:12.520 --> 01:36:13.270
Nathan McBride: Hang in there

1383
01:36:13.270 --> 01:36:15.859
Mike Crispin: We'll see you next week. See? You be good

1384
01:36:15.860 --> 01:36:16.550
Nathan McBride: Later.